An Introduction to Coach Dave Berdan: 2-time Winner of the Baltimore Marathon

In this month's episode of The Next Level Running Podcast we have new RunDoyen coach Dave Berdan. Coach Dave is a 2-time winner of the Baltimore Marathon and has coached at pretty much any level you can think of -- middle school, high school, college, adult runners, etc. In this episode we hear all about Coach Dave's running background, coaching influences, and what he's learned along the way! This was a great free-form conversation with lots of little nuggets of advice throughout for any coach or runner! I can't wait to get Coach Dave back on the podcast in the future! 

Check out RunDoyen if you are looking for a World Class Expert Run Coach to help you crush your running goals: https://www.rundoyen.com/

If you aren't quite ready for a Run Coach, check out the Doyen Dashers Program:
https://www.rundoyen.com/dashers/

Connect with Coach Dave here:
https://www.rundoyen.com/running-coaches/dave-berdan/

Questions for me: 
https://www.rundoyen.com/running-coaches/jacob-phillips/

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Transcript

Jacob Phillips 0:17

This is the Next Level Running Podcast, brought to you by the expert coaches at Run Doyen, helping runners of all levels trust their goals on race day by matching with the perfect coach for training plan. Hello and welcome back to the Next Level Running Podcast. I'm your host, Jacob Phillips, and this month we have an awesome conversation for you. I sat down with new Run Doyan coach Dave Burdan and we talked uh about his career through running, coaching. Honestly, it's just an introduction to who Coach Dave is. This was a fun conversation for me. Whenever I can just sit down and just talk running uh with another coach, I feel like that's when the wisdom comes out. You you can hear from these stories that Coach Dave has, just these little nuggets of wisdom that I think could help runners of all abilities. But it was cool getting to know Coach Dave. You know, he's a two-time winner of the Baltimore Marathon. Uh, he's also coached a national champion at the NCAA level. He's coached from the middle school level all the way up to adult runners. He's just got a ton of experience uh in running, whether that's as an elite-level athlete uh or coaching at an elite level. And so I thought this was a very fun conversation uh where we really just get to introduce you to one of the newest coaches here at Rondoyan. Before we jump into that conversation, though, um I want to point you to the show notes below. I will have Coach Dave's contact info. Look, if you're looking to crush your running goals, uh connect with him. Coach Dave really tries to tailor each training program to the individual. He wants to make the best program for you. It's not a cookie-cutter approach. We talk about this in the conversation today where he talks about I might have six different clients training for the same marathon, but there might be six different plans because each runner is different. And so, look, if you're looking for that individualization to your training, Coach Dave can help you there. Um, I've also got the link to rundoyen.com. Hey, go check us out. Like, we have a full roster of world-class expert run coaches that want to help you crush your goals. Uh, we've got a we've got an on-site nutritionist who can help you crush your nutrition goals. That's Coach Will. We had uh he did a question and answer on our last podcast uh about nutrition. And so, like, go check out rundoyen.com if you're looking for a coach. If you're not quite ready for a coach, uh the Doy and Dashers is the next best thing. Uh with the Doy and Dashers,$39 a month. You get a training program written for you uh by one of our world-class expert run coaches, but you don't have the one-on-one accountability that really comes with a coach. It's a little bit more flexible. I tried it out this past uh spring uh for about 12 weeks. I loved the flexibility with it. I could move things around. Um, and it just kind of gave me some structure to my own running. Uh so yeah, if you're not quite ready for that coaching yet, maybe the Doyen Dashers will work for you. Uh otherwise, we will be back uh early in June with uh another full form podcast. You know, we try to drop the full form and the uh Instagram live replays every month, whether that's uh on the 13th or the 26th. And uh so yeah, so now let's uh let's jump into my conversation with Coach Dave Bradan, one of the newest run coaches here at Run Doyen. Yeah, so I'm excited to chat today. I know we were uh, you know, when we we we talked a little bit, you know, via email and and chat and then on the phone and such. And so um, but want to just yeah, want to want to let the kind of the the the the Spotify listeners out there know, like, you know, who are you, where are you from? When did you start with Run Doyen?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Yeah, so my name's Dave Burdan. I'm from outside of Baltimore and been living here since 2006. Um so I went to college at a small D3 school called Elizabethtown College in Pennsylvania, and I've I've only been with Rondoyan since October, but it's it's been a great experience though.

Jacob Phillips 4:24

Yeah, that's awesome. And so, like uh when you were at Elizabethtown, like um you ran the whole time you were there?

SPEAKER_02 4:31

Yeah, so I I ran cross-country indoor and outdoor track, and then um I started running in eighth grade. So cool.

Jacob Phillips 4:39

Yeah. So were you like more of a mid-distance guy, longer distance? Like what what kind of like was your like your specialty there?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

So definitely long distance. So 5k, 10k. Yeah, very cool. Yeah, I loved cross, but bat a lot of injuries over my time there.

Jacob Phillips 4:54

But yeah, that's that's kind of how my crew was at a DBU, you know. I was I wasn't very good in high school, you know, went to went to a school that you know would let me run kind of thing, and and uh and had 11 stress fractures in two and a half years. And so um, so yeah, it was uh yeah, it's just uh a lot of grinding, a lot of pounding, and not a lot of recovery, you know. And so you're you kind of learned those lessons. But so how so so you know, Elizabeth Town is is obviously Pennsylvania. How'd you end up in the Baltimore area?

SPEAKER_02 5:20

Uh met my wife, so she's from here.

Jacob Phillips 5:23

Nice, good enough reason, right?

SPEAKER_02 5:25

Yeah, and it's just I met her through some friends at like a local running group party, and yeah. That's cool. And now I'm here.

Jacob Phillips 5:32

That's awesome, man. And so uh, so obviously you joined Ron Doyne in October. When did you start coaching? Like when was your like first experience? Like, okay, I'm coaching. This is kind of like what I love to do.

SPEAKER_02 5:42

Yeah. So back I started coaching people privately back in I guess 2006, kind of when I moved to the Baltimore area. Um, picked up a few people just just on the side, just kind of helping them out and kind of have done that ever since. But then, I mean, I was so when I moved to Baltimore, I I became a teacher. So so then I got into coaching eventually. Um, I'm trying to figure out the years here. So my first my first collegiate coaching experience, I spent three years as an assistant at Johns Hopkins.

SPEAKER_01 6:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

So with Bobby Van Allen, who's also a run doing coach. Yep, yep. So yeah, and then from there I went and taught out of middle school, and my first son was born. So good being gone from 7 a.m. till 7 p.m. kind of wasn't working anymore with the college coaching.

SPEAKER_01 6:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:32

So I stopped that for a little bit and and then I eventually coached at the school I taught at. So I coached middle, middle school, and high school for a few years. So there was kind of a lapse there in the college coaching. Yeah and and then um had the opportunity to go to Stevenson University, which is a a D3 school close by to here outside of Baltimore. Yeah. And spent nine years there.

Jacob Phillips 6:53

Oh wow. So at the so you've been middle school, uh high school, college, and now you know, coaching online, you know, or or at least adult runners, like obviously you probably enjoy all of it. Which which one did you like seriously? Like, man, that was that that kind of was the the most enjoyable.

SPEAKER_02 7:09

You know, just a couple of the teams I had while I was at Stevenson. Just it's just just the whole team environment's always been. I mean, uh anybody that's that's run in high school or college knows what I'm talking about. Just yeah, if you have a good team culture, it's almost like family. So we find we've we we established that kind of early on in my time at Stevenson. And it was so a few of those teams and a few of those individuals over those years, yeah. I don't know, just a great opportunity to coach them.

Jacob Phillips 7:36

So so obviously brag about you a little bit. You had a national champion in cross country when you were there at Stevenson. And so, like, obviously that's I mean, that's as good as it. I guess that or the team title, like that's about as good as it gets, right? Like, you can't you can't get any better than that, at least at the national stage. And so, like, like when you know, you're talking about these, this, this great team culture. When you had that national champion, was it with a team that had that kind of culture?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

It was so that was a team that um honestly that we we were hoping to win the conference championship for the first time that year. And I had three seniors and they knew what they needed to do. They finished one, two, and four. But then we our fifth runner was about 60th. So that shows you how important it is for the the team title.

SPEAKER_01 8:20

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 8:20

But um, but that was the year that um his name's Patrick Watson that that he went on to win a national title.

SPEAKER_01 8:26

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 8:27

So it was cool because his teammates they drove out and watched him, like again, just great team culture, like to support him.

Jacob Phillips 8:33

Well when when you're getting him ready for that, is it one of those things where like you're like, yeah, you're gonna win, or is it oh my gosh, that was a surprise?

SPEAKER_02 8:39

Um, so he finished 15th the year before. Okay. And then that June, after track season, he decided he was going. I mean, it was his second summer going to Flagstaff to train.

SPEAKER_01 8:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

But he we sat down in June, and I mean, he pretty much told me I'm gonna win next year. And I was like, okay. Okay. I mean, that's awesome. Like, yeah, we got a lot of work to do. No doubt. But but I definitely think it's possible just with his trajectory that over the the few years that I did coach him. And I mean, he was all in. I mean, it was just it's just really cool when you have somebody like that that everything was dialed in. I mean sleep, diet, hydration, and and again, and we even kind of periodized it so that it wasn't like too much, you know what I mean?

Jacob Phillips 9:24

Yeah, yeah. Like not letting the lifestyle get too deep as well, right? Like kind of having the the mental reset there and that sort of so what year was that?

SPEAKER_02 9:33

2019.

Jacob Phillips 9:34

Oh, so recent or relatively recent.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Yeah, and unfortunately, that was also right before COVID. So yeah, so his senior year track season, we were at indoor nationals, we were already there, and they they called told us we're going home. Yeah, what did he qualify in? Um, so the 3K and the 5K. Okay. I mean, he was the favorite in both. Yes. And then man, I mean, he probably could have done steeple 5k, 10k outdoors.

Jacob Phillips 10:00

Wow. Yeah, that was yeah, we we yeah, that senior year was rough for for those kids, you know, not not getting that opportunity. But uh, well, that's cool, man. So, like, I also want to talk a little bit about your running and then kind of kind of walk through this idea of like, you know, coaching from the middle school level to college to to to adult runners and and and everything in between. But like, so obviously lifetime runner, we were chatting, you're still you're still getting after it, maybe not racing as much, but still kind of getting after it. But you pursued the Olympic trials uh marathon when you graduated college. So when you when you graduated college, like was it like, hey, I'm going straight to the marathon, or is it like I'm gonna keep doing these 5K? Like, what was that kind of path from your college career to uh to to being a post-collegiate runner?

SPEAKER_02 10:41

Yeah, so I I knew in college that my future was the marathon, just that I was better at everything that was longer. Yeah. So like my coach was telling me, I mean, he's like, You're gonna you're gonna move to the marathon.

SPEAKER_01 10:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:53

So but so I initially graduated college. I moved to Colorado, not not to train, but because I got a fisheries biologist job because my degree was environmental science. There you go. But I ended up in this amazing mountain town called Salida.

SPEAKER_01 11:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

That the county had fifty, I think 15,000, 14,000 foot peaks in it.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 11:13

So it was it was, I mean, beautiful. But I spent five days a week hiking with a backpack electro fishing device at 12,000 feet. Yeah. And trying to train on top of that. So I would wake up and run in the morning before work. When I got home from doing that, I would run. And I just eventually got to a point I'm like, you know what? I'm I'm 23. If I'm gonna give it a go, like now's now's the time. And yeah. And I I mean, I had the support of my parents too. Like they always wanted me to kind of follow, follow my dreams.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:44

Yeah. So so then I moved back to Pennsylvania and moved in with a friend who helped me out and helped me, I mean, gave me a place to live, and I trained on my own. And that was the time when I really like just decided, like I in college I read a lot of stuff about coaching and just philosophies. But that was when like I was gonna coach myself, so I went all in. I mean, I got every book I could get, got on the internet and read everything I could read from from every coach out there. Yeah. And you know what? It was that experience of learning all that that I th that ultimately led me to wanting to coach. No doubt. But it was it was learning to coach myself and kind of me being an experiment.

Jacob Phillips 12:25

So so did you coach yourself throughout? I mean, outside of having some advice and such, did did you coach yourself throughout the time you ran post-collegially?

SPEAKER_02 12:33

So I I did initial initially, and then I I did spend a short stint at Zap Fitness down in Pete Ray and and Z, they gave me a a great opportunity to move down there and train, and then I ended up just one run, one long run in the winter, running on some icy roads. Like, I don't know what happened. I did something in my knee, I didn't fall, but it re it was a big reminder of a feeling I had in the other knee in college. And I needed surgery to get that fixed. Yeah. We tried everything, I mean, some quarter zone shots and everything, and then eventually, like I just knew I needed surgery, so so I ended up also around that time I met my wife.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

So that was like Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

So after after being there for about, I don't know, eight, nine months, then I then I moved to Baltimore, and then from then on I coached myself.

Jacob Phillips 13:24

Yeah. So what era was that with Zap Fitness? Because I mean at their at some point they're winning club nationals and cross, and you know, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:31

So that was I guess probably 2006, 2007. Okay. So that was like, I don't know if you remember Dan Wilson.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:38

Yeah, Dan, Dan. So uh Myler. You're thinking Ian Connor.

Jacob Phillips 13:44

Okay, yeah you go. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Yeah. So Dan was a Connecticut guy, and then Ian was Ohio State. Okay, yeah. But so Ian was there for a year, Dan was on his way out. So I was kind of like right before we started kind of they win in the club national stuff.

Jacob Phillips 13:57

So yeah, so in so December of 2007, I think I went to Cleveland, Ohio for the club championships. It was snowy, it was miserable. Uh, but Zap was there, I can't remember if they won that year or not, but uh, but you know, kind of, you know, as this post-college guy that, you know, not good enough to run for anybody, you're you you know, you kind of geek out over the brook uh Hanson's Brooks and Zap and and that sort of stuff. But so so when you're going through this before Zap, and then maybe even after that, but you dive into reading this stuff, like what was your biggest influence? Like what did you like what'd you walk away from and say, man, like this kind of connects with me?

SPEAKER_02 14:29

So I guess I mean, first it I guess it kind of started with my college coach. Like he was really big on what he always called aerobic development. So we we were, I mean, I he was ahead of his time, I feel like, like with just threshold work, um, even even an occasional double threshold way back then.

SPEAKER_01 14:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:47

Um, and just the importance of getting the mileage up to be manageable, like like to a point that you're not hurting yourself, but like for each individual, yeah, and just the importance of a long run, too. So that was he was the one that kind of started that for me.

SPEAKER_01 15:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:01

But then just reading about everybody, like it's funny. I like to say I kind of take a little bit from from everywhere, but a big influence on me when I got later in my marathon training was Renato Canova.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:13

So that he, I mean, big influence there. And and we we talked like and Nate Jenkins helped me out a little bit. So, like, just it the running community is amazing because you can reach out and people are willing to help you.

Jacob Phillips 15:27

Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, I mean, like it's not as uh yeah, it's not so closed-lipped as as much and and stuff. And yeah, I was actually I was talking with a former student yesterday who's a high school coach and just trying to figure out how to train kids and try to kind of figure out I feel like I'm just grabbing things, right? And and I don't feel like there's any as it man, I was the same way. Like every time I read something, I thought this is the greatest thing ever, you know. And then at some point you kind of uh, you know, through trial and error and a lot of error, you know, you figure out what kind of works and such. And I was the same way, man. I we were talking about we, you know, we we kind of both reached out to Nate Jenkins at some point. And and uh, but man, my my the the enlightenment uh was let's run.com. It was uh it was the training wisdom of John Kellogg. And I remember sitting down one winter, I was at my in-laws, and then we were at US TFCCA convention, and then so and I'm just reading and I said, this is what we're gonna do. Like we're gonna go high high aerobic development, you know, high volume, and that kind of and I that clicked with me, right? And I think like when we're on this path, like it's super simple to say, well, this is what I've always done, but to find something that fits your personality, uh fits your environment, I think that's I think that's big.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

But uh so like so just real quick, just you mentioning Let's Run and John Kellogg. So going back to college, my junior the so I went to Boulder one summer before my junior year, and then I spent two summers at Flagstaff. Okay. I got to meet Weldon and Weldon Johnson of Let's Run and Robert was out there at that time. And then I did a fifth year because I had that knee surgery. And the winter before that spring track season, I lived in Weldon's house with him.

Jacob Phillips 17:01

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 17:02

But going back, it was my initial time meeting Weldon before my junior year of college that he would go out and run 12 miles at 730 pace.

SPEAKER_01 17:10

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:11

I was like, wait, this 28-minute 10K guy.

Jacob Phillips 17:14

Yeah, jogging.

SPEAKER_02 17:15

Yeah. So that's when I and that was when I like learned like you got to slow down to get faster.

Jacob Phillips 17:19

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 17:20

That was the big thing.

Jacob Phillips 17:21

And that was that was my so so so Weldon is like my running hero, right? This guy that, and he was obviously decent, you know, but like to go from 3016 to eventually 2804 or whatever it was he ran for his PR, like I was like, man, that's kind of me, you know, that's my idea. And I never did that, but that was that was my hope, right? And um, and this idea of just kind of risking it, right? To keep pursuing it, and like like that's what that's what you did, right? You kept pursuing it. And so, so how many, so like, so I know you got pretty darn close to to qualifying for the trials, and so like what was the standard, what year? And then like I know you ran like maybe 221. What was the standard when you ran 221?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

So when when I ran 221, it was 220. Yeah, and and when I ran 223, it was 222.

Jacob Phillips 18:03

Oh my gosh. So yeah, yeah, it's crazy. So you missed it twice by basically a minute.

SPEAKER_02 18:09

Yeah. So back in I guess 2008, I I ran uh it was a steam town marathon up in Pennsylvania, and I ran a 223 when it was 222. Oh wow. And then the next the four years later, I ran uh I bought went to Baltimore and ran 221 when it was 220. Yeah. And then from there it kind of kept dropping.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

But and then at that point too, like, I mean, um growing a family, full-time job, like it gets harder and harder to train at that level, especially for the marathon.

Jacob Phillips 18:39

Like and and those are those are two marathons that you wouldn't think to go try an Olympic trials qualifier at, right? Like, I mean, like that's not the popular ones, right? And so what what what is that steam? Is that steam town course? Is the is the weather like like what's that like?

SPEAKER_02 18:52

So the steam town, it's actually a decent course. I think it's one of those net downhill ones.

SPEAKER_01 18:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:56

So it's supposed to be fast, but when I went there, it was 80 degrees.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Gosh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

It was just it was just a bad, bad weather day. I mean, yeah, again, and that's the that's the hard part with marathoning. Like I mean, it could be 40 and rain or it can be 80, 80 and sunny.

Jacob Phillips 19:11

You know, I've I've never run so and I haven't run a marathon in in a long time, but I I've never run a uh every time I went to a marathon, it was perfect weather, like perfect. Uh the the imperfect part was me figuring out fueling and hydration during a marathon, but like it was always like, man, this is perfect. Like I'm gonna pop it today and it didn't work. So what ended up being your uh what ended up being your your your marathon PR?

SPEAKER_02 19:33

So it was 221 and it was on Baltimore, which is not not known for being fast.

Jacob Phillips 19:39

Yeah, yeah, no doubt. That's October, mid-October range, I think. Yeah, and uh yeah, that's uh I'm yeah, that's uh that's a tough one. And so did you like did you ever run Chicago or you know, grandma's, you know, CIM, anything like that?

SPEAKER_02 19:52

So my debut was CIM. And that was that was in 2008. And funny story, I remember I was at I I mean young first marathon, you're like, all right, I'm on 218 pace through through 18 miles.

SPEAKER_01 20:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:07

And I then uh 21 miles, I sat down on the curb. Yeah. And I'm like I'm contemplating like I flew all the way out here to California, I'm gonna finish this race.

Jacob Phillips 20:16

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, this is a this is an expensive tempo run, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:20

Yes, and then I I mean 227 in my debut, but but man, it was a rough last five miles.

Jacob Phillips 20:27

That's I in 2009. I went to Portland, and that's it had a huge you go over these bridges, and I was uh at 16 miles, I start cramping up, which is very early to start cramping up, you know, and and uh it was pretty miserable. I walked it in and uh that was like three hours and 48 minutes, and then I was like, okay, I'm not ever doing a marathon again. And then I did another one. I tried Chicago, I ran Chicago through about 16 miles, I dropped out, and it was like 30-something degrees that day. And uh and then I went to the woodlands and it was like in 2013, and and I was on, you know, I don't remember 225 pace until about 18 miles, and then it ran seven-minute pace in. And then I did grandma's and I never did another one since. So grandma's was my PR, but like I just couldn't figure it out and it it beat me up. And then I get blisters in my I couldn't find shoes that wouldn't give me blisters or socks. So anyways, it was just a I had a miserable go with the marathon. But I think that like, and and and we can chat about this, but like I I feel like it's as a coach now, uh, you know, I think 2013 was my last marathon. So that was that I actually completed, and so we're talking 11 years ago, 10 years ago. Like I feel like it's easy as a coach to train for. I think it's one of the easier events to train for, in my opinion. Now, there's obviously these things you can't control, you can't control whether the you know, you you hope to prepare for the course, but like what about you? I mean, do you think it's one of those things that like like do you feel like it's pretty easy to kind of nail down?

SPEAKER_02 21:44

Um so it's funny, yeah, on paper you would think so.

Jacob Phillips 21:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:49

But I I think my my issue, I think, was I it wasn't even necessarily to training, it was and I think that's a lot of people's issue is the fueling, just figuring out when to take stuff, how much to take. And and again, I mean that that goes back to the coaching. I mean, I'm coaching several different marathoners and they're all different fueling strategies.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

Yeah. Based on their background, based on how they've handled things in the past. I mean, you got people that are on the low carb side. So it's just it I mean, that that's the puzzle, I feel like, in the marathon is fueling.

Jacob Phillips 22:19

So so do you feel like that was your the the hardest part with you was getting the fueling down?

SPEAKER_02 22:23

Yeah, because I mean I ran a 105 and the half on a rolling hill course. So I just but like you said earlier, because of commit family, because of job, like I never went to a Chicago, I never went to a Cleveland. Um, and a lot of my running friends would always kind of give me crap for that.

Jacob Phillips 22:41

Yeah. Yeah. Get on one of those those uh courses, it's kind of it's kind of gonna happen as long as you don't screw it up, right? Yeah, and and I agree. I think on paper, it's like it's pretty simple. And I think like you know, there was a day on I remember, you know, and maybe I can't remember what a year it was, 2007, 2011. I can't remember, but it was like, you know, Canova called it the day marathoning changed, right? And and I think from that point on, it's like like we train for such a specific like everyone comes to you and they say, I want to run this, right? There's a time, and you basically just train for that time. And and as long as the course is good, the weather's good. Now, obviously, if things can go wrong, but if you just just try to lock into that pace that you're trying to train for, it seems like it's it gets pretty simple. Obviously, the faster you go, the little bit harder it gets, I guess. But like that, that's what I think. I think you're right. On paper, it's it's pretty simple to check these boxes, but yeah, it's got to go well on race day. You got to practice the the fueling. You can't just, and that was my problem. I I'm a college coach. I was running at 4 30 a.m. and there was no one handing me bottles or me putting my bottles out. It was just, well, I'm just gonna figure that out on a race day, and it doesn't really work that way. But yeah, what so as you kind of go through this, you you're pursuing these these Olympic trials, you know, obviously probably heartbreaking to miss it that closely. Like, like, what do you feel like you took from that that you're now implementing to these these marathoners that you're coaching?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah, so I mean a lot. Like I'm trying to think how to even put it to to pick a few things. I mean, the biggest thing was like I think Lydia said this, like he like he was his own experiment, you know what I mean, as far as like the training. Um, because he would train himself, and that's kind of the way the way I took it. Like, yeah, yeah, I'd go if I would if I could go back, I'd change some stuff. Yeah, but but I mean, I feel like you can do that about everything. Um But for me, I mean, I don't know. Like, I just I I've just just the experience I went through, the training, the fueling. Um, I've I've learned a lot that I use with everybody. I mean, and again, like it's just like you were talking earlier, like it seems like it's easy, but there's also that fine line that I try to tell the people that I coach, like we can take a chance, yeah, and kind of like you know, like hit a home run here, and if everything goes perfectly, you can run a big PR. Or we can be a little bit more conservative and go out a little bit slower and feel great the second half, you know what I mean? Yeah, and and that's having them understand like if we do this first one and we're going all in and things don't work out, like it could be rough. Yeah.

Jacob Phillips 25:07

Yeah, it could be, yes.

SPEAKER_02 25:09

And and and I got to experience both.

Jacob Phillips 25:11

Yeah. I see, I couldn't see, and like, you know, like you know, the one of the Hansons, you know, he's he's always saying, like, you know, even split or negative split, that's what we're looking for, right? And Des was so good at that. I could never do that. I just I always I always thought to myself, I feel way too good. Like I'm feeling good. And I would get impatient. And and so like I I think I'm more of a of an example of like, just don't do anything I did, and you're probably gonna be okay, you know, like practice the fueling, practice the hydration, like have that strategy and and and practice it and practice it early and and and throughout and uh and be patient, you know. I mean, that was uh we were talking on the phone yesterday, and like, you know, I I've got these like three cues that I just for my college kids that I think of all the time that they don't say, well, I did this wrong. So do you know, like in my head, I'm like, if I'd have done this, this, and this better, I think it would have not only been more enjoyable, I think I'd have run faster, you know? And so like, is there anything like that, like a cue where you're like, okay, like this is something that like I know that I did poorly, that I've got to, I've got to send to them, you know, or I gotta send to my clients, you know, that to make sure that they're not doing these things.

SPEAKER_02 26:16

Yeah, so I would run amazing workouts. Like on paper, you'd see these workouts and you'd be like, Dave, you should be running 212. Like, yeah, like you know what I mean, like crazy stuff. And I so my what big thing that I would go back and change is dial those back like by like 10% effort because I was I I left a lot of races in those workouts. Yeah, and I mean I I had a blog and I mean and talking to Nate and stuff too. Like you go back and you just like man, like like you were you were running too hard on those workouts, yeah, because it said you should have run a lot faster. And then the other thing, this is going back to college. What I learned from Weldon was run slower on the easy days. Yeah. And that's hard right now with a lot of the clients I'm coaching, telling them that. Like, yeah, at least we have this whole zone two thing going on now. Yeah, people can at least understand a little bit. But getting people to slow down under easy runs is is a big thing so that they're fresh on their workouts.

Jacob Phillips 27:15

No doubt, no doubt. I think that like two of those that like like the three things I think of one is the man, my workouts. If it said run 515 pace, I beat that. You know, like I had to beat that. That was the slowest I could go versus optimal, right? And then yeah, and then I would, I would, you know, I'd I'm in Dallas, Texas. We have white White Rock Lake, it's a nine-mile loop, and I'd go out there and I'd see the guy I'm gonna race in the 5K, you know, next week, and I would pick it up, you know. I'd I did I didn't want them to see me running slow and just a lot of you know insecurities of of my abilities or whatever. And then I neglected so much pre and post run, whether it was strides or any sort of mobility or core work or strength work. Like I thought, I just ran 10 miles in 60 minutes, man, for an easy day. Like, why do six strides? Like, I don't need them, you know. And and I think that's kind of where you know, to the two the two you named are two of the ones that I think back and think that's what I would change.

SPEAKER_02 28:03

I would you know, well, say I completely agree too about the the doing this the strength work and the strides and the stretching. And that's something that's funny. Like, I I give general strength work to all my athletes, yeah. And it's like I give it and I tell them they should be doing it, but I don't do it myself. And I and I need I need to be doing it myself.

Jacob Phillips 28:21

No, no doubt. We've got a young lady that's she's going to the U-20s, and I ran with her this morning, and you know, she was gonna it was just an easy run, she was gonna do some strides, and I said, You do the drills, I'll watch, and then I'll jump in the strides with you, you know, or whatever. Like, I don't, you know, I just yeah, I don't do that. I still to this day, I you know, we don't learn the new tricks and such. But so like I the thing I think about I was like at this at this runner who uh yeah, I ran 230. So I was my goal was trials, I never came close. And like, but like I don't regret a step of it. And and I think like that's the for me, that's the important part. And like as you pursued this, like, was it one of those things you look back on and have fond memories of, or thought, man, that was a lot of work, you know?

SPEAKER_02 28:59

No, amazing memories. I mean, like I I'm big on just follow like enjoying the process. Yeah. And I love I love the training. I love push pushing my body. And yeah, and even now it's like I strove like I'm not training like competitively anymore, but I'm like finding other areas. And when I when like when I was coaching college, I could put it into my athletes, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 29:21

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:21

Now now that I'm not coaching college anymore and I'm with Ron Doyen, like I feel the same thing. Like I get a lot out of seeing their results now.

Jacob Phillips 29:28

No doubt. I I tell my kids all the time, like, you know, very rarely will someone remember your times, but you're gonna remember those moments. You're gonna remember the t teammates, the trips, the travel, and like that's that's kind of how it was. I there's this uh this vision of this perfect crisp morning and the you know, one of the you know, first fall mornings, and I'm just cruising around the lake, and I'll probably never get that back, right? But like, like I don't I don't regret waking up at 4 30 to go do that or anything. You know, it's it was it was super fun and it was a healthy lifestyle and I really enjoyed it and and it met my wife through that, like you sound like you did as well, and getting a coach. And so like as you coach online, you know, because because a little bit of this of this is is an introduction of you to our our client base, right? Like you're relatively new to run doing, but like like what what is like, you know, as you're as you're coaching online, like what do you feel like is a cue you've got to keep in mind as you're working with clients who you can't see every day, you don't see their form, you know, it's it's it's it's it's truly online in the sense of I'm sending workouts and I'm hoping for this communication back so I can do like what's kind of a cue you keep in your mind as you're training these could be a beginner, could be a boston qualifier, everything in between.

SPEAKER_02 30:35

Yeah. So I think the the biggest thing comes down to that initial consultation for me is like really dialing down. Like, I mean, I have a checklist of stuff I go through. Just what, like obviously, what are your goals? What's your background? Yeah. Um, I mean, and then I like I I really love the individual aspect of coaching.

SPEAKER_01 30:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:55

So, like you said, I mean, I got somebody running three days a week that wants to run a 5K.

SPEAKER_01 30:59

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 31:00

Up to I mean, a woman that wants to qualify for the Olympic trials in the marathon.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

So it's like, I mean, it's it's and that's the fun part. It's just the variety.

SPEAKER_01 31:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 31:09

Um, but yeah, the biggest thing for me, I feel like it's just that initial consultation, and I really emphasize to the people that I coach, like we you we gotta communicate. Yeah. You have to communicate with me. Like you gotta, it's not every day. You don't have to update, put comments about easy days, but yeah, the workouts, the long runs, how you're feeling. Yeah. Um, and I think that's the biggest thing with coaching online is the communication piece.

Jacob Phillips 31:32

Yeah, I I I 100% agree. I think like when when when we're getting updates and we're able to analyze that that long run or that workout, and or if they say, Hey, I have been feeling really, really poorly, and we can look at even that the heart rate on that easy run and such. I mean, like just the the communicating how you're feeling and how you're doing is is so big. And I think that's even big. Like, and you probably, I mean, you coached a guy for the national championship, like there's no chance that you just send him off and and you know, like the basketball coach roll the ball out there and let him play. Like you were probably in in in constant communication with him. How are you feeling? How'd you feel about this? Like, and even communicating kind of your vision for whether it's the individual workout or the next couple of weeks, right? Like, like that communication is huge, you know. I like I had a young lady get fourth at nationals. That was the best finish we've had. And and I and and I thought you would win. I would so like where your guy said, Hey, I'm winning. I told her I said, You're you're gonna win, right? Like you you haven't lost all season. And and she she got out kicked in the last, you know, 400 meters and lost by six seconds. And but she went out to Flagstaff, you know, the summer before, put in 100 miles a week as a female NCAA athlete, you know, and and uh and just crushed it. And and but it was one of those things where like you communicate with all athletes, you communicate with all your clients, but like with her going for this, knowing we're trying to win a national championship. I mean, I would send instead so I would send out the team's training and then I'd send a note and say, hey, look, on Tuesday, this is the this is the goal, right? And then on Saturday, this is the goal, you know, to get a little bit more, uh, a little bit more in-depth communication, because you know, the the second the second girl on that team was 97th at nationals, you know, so like a little different, right? And so, but yeah, that communication is so is so key. Um, so obviously, I know competitive days are over, but you're still running. So tell me a little bit about that. Like, because I have I'm 41, you're 43, right? Like, yes, so real so you got a couple years, years on me, but I find it so hard, and I love running, but I find it so hard to so like what keeps you getting out the door every day?

SPEAKER_02 33:29

So I for one to be so I have two boys, 13 and 15. Yes. So to be able, I just I just I'm at a point, and I know 43 is not that old, but I'm thinking I'm thinking long term. Um so I'm like lifting weights five days a week. I run run every day. I'm not killing myself. Maybe I'll do a long run on the weekend if I have time. Yeah, but I'm thinking more like long-term health now, and that's that I can jump into my son's soccer practice that I help coach, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, things like that. And it's nice to not wake up and be tired and sore every day. Yeah, yeah. But so it's and again, like I missed that, but I did it for 20 years, you know what I mean?

Jacob Phillips 34:08

So it's like um, so I'm still I I don't run as much and I'm still sore when I wake up, you know. So I'm doing something wrong, you know. But um, so yeah, so I'm I don't I don't want to keep you all day. It's uh it's a not a beautiful Saturday for you, it's a beautiful Saturday for me. But like, you know, this is gonna post as we as we kind of head into the summer. We're gonna we're gonna drop this in in about a week. And so like I think just kind of kind of two two main things before we get out of here. Like one, like you've got clients that are trained for stuff. I'm sure, you know, the the hardest thing for me is training it training a client for a fall marathon, you know, because the summer's coming. Like what do you tell what do you tell them as they're getting ready for for a fall marathon as they're training in the summer? I mean, are you are you preaching, like what are you preaching in terms of just the the heat, the humidity, that stuff that's coming?

SPEAKER_02 34:53

Yeah, so again, I mean, the communication piece there is big because it they can, I mean, if they're telling me like we have a we have a hard long run scheduled this weekend or some long intervals and it's gonna be 90 degrees, yeah, yeah, um, then we'll adjust the pace or maybe we change it to to effort. Yeah, and just just communicate to them that like you're still putting in the effort, you're still getting in the work. You can't just just focus on the pace all the time. Um, so that and I mean again, we coach such a variety of people. So there's it the time that they get to run is adjusting. Some people can only run at five o'clock in the evening. Yeah, you know what I mean? So there's really no way to get around that.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 35:33

Just just adjusting. I mean, and you know what? I mean, if we communicate well and there's a day, day over the next week when it's gonna be cooler, maybe we move the workout to there. For sure. For sure.

Jacob Phillips 35:43

So so so, like, uh, and then I guess like, you know, kind of we're kind of bounce all over the place here. I just figured we're just gonna chit-chat and talk and get to know you and and go through your career and that sort of stuff. But like, biggest lesson you learned in running, like you feel like you learned in these 20 years of or 20 plus years of running.

SPEAKER_02 35:58

Uh that it takes time. Yeah. Um, I I'd say, and that it's it's all about consistent training. I mean, that's that's that's what I try to tell anybody that's new to it.

SPEAKER_01 36:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:07

You're not gonna come to running out of nowhere and run a ridiculous marathon in. No doubt. Um, so that's that's the biggest thing, I think, is just it's it takes time for your your body physiologically to catch up to the training. Yeah. So so you it's just just think long term is kind of the big big thing.

Jacob Phillips 36:26

No doubt. So I know you still work out, I know you still stay, stay, stay relatively fit, but let's go back to peak prime years. You have that fitness, you're in that shape, but the one workout you're choosing to do. You can like it, you're fresh, you're fit, and you're gonna pick one workout. What's your favorite workout?

SPEAKER_02 36:42

You know, I love those the marathon long runs, kind of the stuff, especially the ones that Renato Canova would always so it'd be like 22 miler, where there's four by three miles at 5'10 pace in there, yeah, yeah. So like like stuff like that. Like I just the accomplishment you feel when you're done with that on a Sunday morning and then you show up the rest of the day ahead.

Jacob Phillips 37:02

Yes, yes. You get to just yeah, chow down and and watch football or whatever, you know. Like what would you would you do, like a float mile in those?

SPEAKER_02 37:10

Yeah, so that yep. So I mean, and that float mile would be like six-minute pace, kind of typical Canova. Like, yeah. And um, yeah, I mean, and then even the ones that were more like progressive, kind of long runs. I just love the long runs. I mean, any type of alternation work.

Jacob Phillips 37:26

Yeah, yeah. But yeah, that's that's uh yeah, that's stuff that you you can't fake that, right? Like you don't get to just stand around. And then finally, fate favorite running memory. What's your favorite m running memory? Whether that's a coach or an athlete.

SPEAKER_02 37:37

You know, well, I'm gonna give you two. So the coach was, I mean, Patrick Watson winning the national title, just more for even more so for him, just knowing like the work that went into it, him in the final straightaway looking over to his parents and and like yeah, yeah, like knowing like I got it locked. Like yeah, you can't you can't beat that feeling, right? No, and then for me, like it's funny, like I always visualized winning the Baltimore marathon. So so the first time kind of winning that, yeah, what was was it? I mean, that was my greatest accomplishment. Just like it was just cool. I lived in Baltimore.

Jacob Phillips 38:09

Yeah, hometown race, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:11

Hometown. I was a teacher. So I mean, I even spent two years teaching in the city, my first two years teaching, and the course went right past that middle school where I taught.

Jacob Phillips 38:20

That's awesome, man. Well, Dave, again, like I think this kind of more turned into an introduction of who you are to our client base, to the to the listeners out there. But man, I'd love to have you on the podcast uh at a different time. We can pick something to talk about, an actual topic or something versus just chit-chatting. And I know that's what we talked about like all week leading into this, is like, well, we talk about it's not just to get to know each other, you know, and get to know you and and uh and just kind of introduce you to the clients and such. But uh I'm inspired, man. Just the fact that you're 43 and you're still getting after it every day. I this is uh I ran Monday through today. So I've run every day this week. That's the first time I've done that in in over a year, you know, and and um and my longest run was three miles, three and a half miles, I think. So it wasn't even a lot, you know, but just uh the summer for me is like when I try to get back into shape. And so now I'm like, well, I'm not lifting, so I probably need to I probably need to start hitting the weights. I got I got a five-year-old and a seven-year-old myself, you know. And so uh yeah, I want to be able to keep up with them and such. But uh, Dave, I appreciate your time today, man. It's uh it's it's really cool just the the path that you've had as a coach and as a runner. I mean, I feel like you've kind of uh reached some some really cool peaks on on both of those and obviously still going. And and uh yeah, thanks so much for the time today.

SPEAKER_02 39:27

Oh, thanks. I appreciate it. It's been fun.

Jacob Phillips 39:29

Yeah, let's do it again, man. Talk to you later.

SPEAKER_02 39:31

All right, sounds good. Bye.

Jacob Phillips 39:34

And that does it for this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast. I want to thank Coach Dave for his time. And uh yeah, it's just a fun conversation. Uh, can't wait to have him back on the podcast in the future as we dive in more uh about coaching and running and yeah, just uh yeah, maybe a little bit more specific about his training to win the Baltimore Marathon twice, or maybe even the training that he gave uh his athlete who won the national championship. Anyways, fun conversation today. Super thankful for the time. Uh thank you for joining us each each month and and for each episode of the Next Level Running Podcast. If you haven't, I would love to ask you for uh to get on your podcast platform of choice and give us a rating. You know, we'd love a five-star rating for sure. It would help our podcast reach more people. Um, and if you've got something you want us to do a podcast on, running, coaching, training related, uh feel free to reach out. I'll have my contact info in the show notes below. Um, but yeah, I'd love to hear about what you, the audience, want to hear about. Do you want more stories about hearing what coaches, our coaches went through and did and what they've done? Is there certain topics you want to hear about? Uh yeah, we want to serve you in the best way possible. Uh, but thank you so much for joining us each month on the Next Level Running Podcast. Uh, it's getting hot out there, summer's coming. Make sure you're taking care of yourself with hydration, running uh at the coolest times of the day, or at least trying to find some shade to run for. And until next time, have a great run. Thank you for joining us here on the Next Level Running Podcast, your source for training advice from the expert coaches at Run Doyan. If you're ready to take your training and racing to the next level, head over to Rundoyan.com and get matched to your ideal coach, who will provide you with the highly customized online training you need for crushing your goals on race day.