Breaking Through: Santiago Salem

In this special episode of the Next Level Running Podcast, I sit down with guest Santiago Salem, a RunDoyen client and self proclaimed recreational runner! Santiago started his marathon path by running 5:50, 'dragging himself across the line', and has recently run under 2:45 at the 2023 California International Marathon! This is a great conversation on what it takes to breakthrough mental and physical barriers and how to take your running to the next level! 

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Santiago's Podcast: Running - El Podcast (Spanish):
https://open.spotify.com/show/63XDWjDx9rqwiJhu2wpy6V

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Transcript

Jacob Phillips 0:17

This is the Next Level Running Podcast, brought to you by the expert coaches at Run Doyen, helping runners of all levels trust their goals on race day by matching with the perfect coach for training players. Hello and welcome back to the Next Level Running Podcast. I'm your host, Jacob Phillips, and I'm excited for the episode we've got for you today. I sit down with one of my online running clients from RunDoyan.com. His name is Santiago Salem, and uh he's what you would call an amateur runner. Uh he considers himself an amateur or recreational runner, but uh he's had quite a breakthrough in the last year in his own running. We talked about his life as an amateur runner. Uh, we talk about his breakthrough from his first ever marathon where he ran five hours and fifty minutes, uh, where he said he literally drug his body across the finish line, uh, said it was the hardest thing he's ever done. And then we talk about how he made uh a change in his mindset, a change in his lifestyle style. He made himself uh a disciplined runner. And then he joined RunDoyan.com. He signed up using our matching feature and started with us. And uh I've been working with him since November of 2022, and uh he's gone from a five-hour and 50-minute marathoner to last CIM, so last December, he ran 244.59. We talked through his progression uh as a runner, what led to those breakthroughs. This was this conversation was pure gold. Like if you're a runner out there and you feel like you're struggling or you're stuck or you're looking for a breakthrough, this is a great conversation for you. Santiago was very open and honest about where he was when he ran the 550 marathon and where he is now as he's looking forward to the Berlin Marathon in September. It's a great conversation. I'm excited for you to hear it today. Um, but before we jump into the conversation, as usual, I want to point you to the show notes below. I've got the uh website, rundoyan.com. Look, if you are looking to uh take your running to the next level, uh rundoyan.com has a roster full of world-class expert run coaches who want to help you. We use a unique matching feature. Santiago talks about in the podcast today, how he thought it was the it was perfect to match him with the right coach. We use this unique matching feature to make sure you're with the right coach to walk alongside you as you try to crush your running goals. And look, if you're not quite ready for a full-time running coach yet, then you can try the the Doyen Dashers. It's only$39 a month. And it's kind of like the step before having that full-time commitment to a running coach. Uh the there's a running schedule made for you, for your goals, by one of our expert run coaches. I tried it in the spring. I loved it. I loved the flexibility of it. Um, I love that it wasn't uh over the top with the I didn't have to communicate back and forth with anyone. I could kind of go at my own pace, and I really used enjoying that. And so I really enjoyed using that. So um, you know, I've got the link there to the Doy and Dashers program if that's something um that you're interested in. I'm also gonna have a link to uh Santiago's uh personal podcast. He's got a uh a Spanish-speaking podcast called Running the Podcast. So it's a running podcast in Spanish. So for our Spanish speakers out there, um, or if you've got friends who run who are Spanish speakers, uh, I wanted to plug uh Santiago's podcast here since he was so kind to be a guest today. And then below that, I've got the links to our uh at RunDoy Instagram account as well as our next level running Facebook community group. Look, if you want to be part of um you know an online community where you can follow along, get great advice, uh consume running content, those uh social media spots uh might be the place for you. And so I've got I've got those linked below. And as always, I'll have my contact info linked below. Look, if you want to reach out to me about the podcast, uh about running, whatever it is, you can you can reach me through uh that contact info below. But look, this is a great conversation. I'm excited to jump into it. Santiago Salem, amateur runner. He talks about discipline, he talks about passion, he talks about holding yourself accountable. This is a great conversation. Let's hit it. Hey Santiago, how you doing, man?

SPEAKER_02 4:55

Oh good. You?

Jacob Phillips 4:57

Man, I'm good. I'm good. I I uh I ran nine miles, which is a long ways for me this morning, and it was it was brutal, man. It was uh you know, like 80 degrees, full humidity. I it looked like I went swimming, but uh yeah, it's it's uh it's summer is here, you know?

SPEAKER_03 5:13

Yeah, luckily for me, you know, that that that just went away uh a couple of probably a month and a half ago or a month ago. And it's been two years of continuous like excess heat compared to the you know anomaly heat. Yeah, it's been it now, it's been a breathe of fresh air just to run on on normal, decent temperatures like 20 25, 27 Celsius, and and like 70% humidity and not like 30 and 90 percent humidity.

Jacob Phillips 5:45

But oh wow, where so so where where like where are you exactly located?

SPEAKER_03 5:50

Um I'm at uh sea level, so that's unfortunate unfortunately for me that I don't have the advantage of training on high altitude, but I'm I am in Guayaquil, which is the coast in Ecuador, and we are about a degree and a half, almost two degrees south south of the equator. So our summer is actually your winter, it's it's reversed.

Jacob Phillips 6:13

Oh, very cool. Yeah, so you're you're fixing. So we're going into it, you're coming out of it. So it's uh yeah, yeah, that's uh that's awesome. So tell me, how was your session today? Was it pretty good?

SPEAKER_03 6:22

It was I was amazing. I I enjoyed it pretty much. These these uh, you know, lactate thresholds are for me like I I think like during our CIM block, it's where I really understood the the I you know what does to my body these kind of sessions, what what do they do, and and how do you should approach to them and what should be your mentality in them? And you know, once I build that in in my mentality, I look forward to tackling this kind of session. So yeah, I mean I I did pretty okay, I think.

Jacob Phillips 6:53

Yeah, it looked pretty good, but so so you know, I I I kind of get ahead of myself, but you and I we started working together after New York City 2022, correct?

SPEAKER_03 7:05

Yeah, yeah. And so you already uh I was already a client uh with Ron Doyen prior to that.

Jacob Phillips 7:12

How long had you been with Ron Doyen?

SPEAKER_03 7:15

So I I I've I've always been like an empirical runner. I like to run, but I was not disciplined enough, and I was just you know following kind of like apps and training programs, but I never knew exactly how to really train. I I always enjoyed running half marathons, but just for fun. I I never really raced them or tried to do anything competitively. So I I signed up for the Chicago Marathon Lottery, and I got I got in for you know, I got lucky, and in my first try, I got in to the ballot. And so that that that really changed who I am as a runner because I trained for that and I I screw myself up over. I busted my knee, I had an ITB uh you know injury that I I pushed through and I tried to to reach to Chicago in in shape, but I couldn't. And so I got injured and and I finished, I I was I was able to try you know try to run for like the first 10 kilometers, and then I dragged my body over the last 32. And that was that's the the hardest thing I've ever done in my life regarding sports. Yeah, but I finished with a 550, and then and so I I I you know I needed I knew in my in my head I was doing the calculations because I needed to get that under six hour finisher to be deemed as a finisher, yeah, officially. So so I I dragged myself over that you know 32 kilometers and and and and it it was bad. I mean it was good for my mental strength, but it was really bad on my body, and and that was October 2019. So I couldn't run for for for like a year. Uh I tried running on the on January uh 2020 and I couldn't run. I I couldn't finish a kilometer because of the pain. And and I came back home and I said to my wife, I was just married. I said to my wife, it's over, like I'm not running anymore. And then COVID hit. Yeah. And when COVID hit, I I I kind of it was a silver lining for me because I was able to kind of have this conversation with myself and say, you know, this is a chance for you to get back into shape. And so I I went over with a nutritionist and a sports uh medicine doctor. I did all the rehab, I I try I put my body into this process of something I've never done before. So I I I built my body for running specifically, and then that's when I said, okay, now it's time to start running again. After six months of like very hard rehab, and that's where I found rondoyan.com. I was um there was a lot of information online to try to find a good coach. I knew I did not want to follow my previous mistake of just following an app with no feedback and with not no adaptation to what I was feeling and and where I was at. And and and Ron Dyan was the only platform that really had this matching tool. And I thought that was pretty cool. Yep. Um I thought that at least for me as a runner, that I've gone through what I had gone through and and having in mind that I wanted to finish a marathon in good shape, that that matching tool really, really helped me decide towards joining Ron Doyne. And it matched me with Ryan Vale, yeah, who I love the way he he he brought me back from from the cave I was in, and he was able to, after a year of training, he was able to put me in Houston and run the Houston marathon, and we were always aiming just to raise a good, healthy marathon and reach the to the start line in in good health and enjoy it. Yeah, but we were doing so good in the process, and you know, mainly his his training was very a good part of it, my mentality was another good part of it, but also because I I build my body for for racing, for running now, and that's something I I learned like through the experience that it's something you have to do, and that's not something a coach can tell you, it's something you have to learn for yourself. I mean, a coach can tell you you have to do strengthening, you have to do, but you know, you have to convince yourself that that's the right way. No doubt. And unfortunately for me, that came from an injury, but that that was a silver lining again because it built me into the runner I am today, which you know it's been three years now with Ron Doyen and with you and first Ryan, and then now you as a coach, which is almost now a year and a half or maybe two, um, and no no no serious injuries at all. So, in that process, Ryan and in the conversation with Ryan, uh, we said, you know, let's just go for it and see if we can. The original time was goal was to 320, and then we swing like 315 and then 310, and then three weeks before the marathon, I said, hey coach, I think if the weather's right and and I feel good enough, I know it's my first marathon, so it should not be something that we look as uh as a as an imperative goal, but you know it is a BQ possible, and he said, Yeah, I mean on a on a on on a magical day, if you're feeling right, it it is possible, but let's not you know go crazy about it. Yeah. And and so I you know that on that Houston day, everything was perfect, everything was magical, and and I raced with my heart and my strength and and all the training that I went with over with Ryan, because that was the first time I had really had a trainer uh to put things in perspective. And and I was able to train for a year prior to this marathon. That was that was a very long cycle, but yeah, it was not really a marathon cycle, it was like getting back into running, making sure you're healthy, and then getting into marathon cycle. Yeah, I didn't know that by then, but now I know that's what he did to me during that year, yeah. And and I was very confident, and I just pushed and I got my 302 and I qualified for Boston, which was you know, I was coming off a year and a half before from a 550 marathon. Yeah, and and so that that's not a usual story, but it made me it made me very happy, and and but also uh you know, it there's there was this fire within me that that started that uh just said, you know, this is just the beginning, and if you were able to do that in in your first real marathon test try, then then there's so much more you can do. So yeah, that's that's how I got into the first marathon, and that's how I got into run doing it. And I really love the way Ryan coached me and helped me get back into running and understand running and love running. And that was a real nice process for me because I under I started to understand a lot about myself as a runner.

Jacob Phillips 14:20

Yeah, well, I I think it's super cool because you know you you talk about before you, you know, you you're you're you're kind of running for fun, you know, you you're kind of following these things, and you say, Yeah, I wasn't really disciplined. And like that's the exact opposite of my experience with you. I mean, you've been like like you find a way. I mean, we we started, you know, basically November of 2022, and I I can't remember, I think you had a uh like a pretty small child at that point, and then you've had another in that time, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:50

Yeah, yeah. So I we just I just finished uh the cycle for New York. I yeah, I thought I was aiming for a sub three in New York, and man, that that year was brutal, it was awesome, like 25 Celsius, uh 80 humidity, and and I I was just coming out of a COVID. Uh my my own the only time I got COVID was was in August. So I was still not 100% back. And and I got a 304, which was a very decent time for me, but I was somewhat disappointed at not being able to achieve the sub-three that I knew I kind of been training for. And then with Ryan, we had a couple of uh, you know, uh he had some things going on in his life, he couldn't coach me anymore. And that's when I when I switched over to you and we started training because I had already qualified for Boston. I've made the cut for Boston. Luckily, that year that the the buffer was not extreme. Yeah, and we started training about I think it was like the first week of December that we actually you know formally started as as a coach. Yeah. Uh and then and then we and we had in April, you know, right around the corner, four months to prepare for Boston. Yep.

Jacob Phillips 16:02

And and the goal was to actually get that sub three in Boston. And and and what was cool about that was like, you know, when we talk about this being disciplined, you know, like if like marathon training is not easy, especially if you're trying to make these major breakthroughs. There's these long, hard runs, a lot of kilometers or miles that you're running, a lot of hard sessions, and you find a way. I mean, it's not like uh, you know, like you're not a professional runner, right? And so you've got a wife, you've got kids, you've got stuff going on, you know, and so like Yeah, you've got to make a living in your job and things going on.

SPEAKER_03 16:38

I I have also side hobbies. I play in a heavy metal band and I I I am a sailor with my father. We we we share the sailing and we do competitive sailing. Yeah. So finding time to do that was pretty hard. But that's the thing. Like, I when I when I started with a coach, first with Ryan, uh, I I understood that it's more about efficient training. Uh so quality is always more important than quality. And if you're able to find the time to do that quality, you have to do it like really on. Like if you the easy days are okay, but if you have to go hard, you have to go hard, and then you have to make that day count. And I learned that uh, and yeah, I I was not disciplined before, but this fire within me started when I was able to go through that first BQ cycle, yeah. And and then and then it's just switched. There was a switch in my head, and and it is like a beast, like you know, it it just it was dormant and and something clicked, and then I I always I mean it's a cliche thing that people say you need discipline, but here's the thing you all discipline has to come from from a place, yes, like there has to be something within you that makes you want to wake up, and sometimes that feeling of being tired and not being happy and not and feeling a little bit sore will prevent you from doing that. So I don't know if the words passion or just putting putting being holding yourself accountable for your for what your goal is, and so you kind of have to put yourself a like put a goal in front of yourself and and and commit to that. So commitment is is is is something that will bring discipline if you're committed enough. I think that's the way I see it. And and and yeah, and and and and you mentioned that I had I had a kid, uh a daughter, and she was about a year when we started running, now have another one, which was born during the CNIN cycle, which was like for me something that it was a that was my breakaway as a runner. That that really just you know, you you were there with me, you you were along that ride with me. And that that really I I still think that even like even after the Boston cycle that we did together, um I would I'm not the same runner that I that I like the CIN cycle transforming because that was the real first gruesome cycle that we were doing more than 50 miles per week, and we were doing very long quality root runs within the week. Uh those things that that were not our I don't think that those are part of normal, you know, uh amateur/slash recreative runner plans. And and there's nothing wrong with that, but but uh during that cycle and when we set that goal in mind, uh you know, there was a there was a a before and after. And I think now I am capable of doing things that I I never thought I was capable before, and and maybe we have reached like a fitness level that now it's a little bit less hard to maintain. So the effort to to try to get there is really hard, but once you get there, maintaining it, it seems that it's a little bit less hard. Yeah, I'm pretty happy about that.

Jacob Phillips 20:05

Well, yeah, and I think like, you know, kind of kind of walking back to that to that Boston cycle then and then to the CIM cycle, like I I think like, yeah, you know when to dial in, you know when to lock in, when when when it needs to be great, when it's like, okay, I can I can take this a little easier. But I also feel like there's there's good balance, right? Like we worked really hard for that first Boston cycle. And and and just for those out there, you know, our listeners, like, you know, you went from you you had run 302 uh in in Houston in 2022. Yeah. And then and then you go to New York, you run 304, which on a hilly course in those conditions, that's that's equivalent, if not faster, effort, right? Uh coming off of illness, et cetera. And then we start to work for Boston and and it's a new client, it's a new relationship in terms of coach athlete, and you just took to it. I mean, like you did the work so well. And we ran 257, right? And and that was that sub three. And I remember talking to you, you know, I think on the Saturday or Sunday before the race, you ran on Monday. And uh, man, we we were worried about I'm not used to, you know, the cooler temperatures, you know, like how, you know, and uh, but you just rolled. And the cool thing is, is like, and I I I've got it pulled up on my on the on the final surge here, but like the the the the cool thing is, and and we'll and we'll go check out the CIM as well, but like just the consistency of your 5k splits. I mean, it's just like they're all within about 10 seconds of each other over 5K, right? So over three plus miles, right? You're just it's it's just very smooth. And and that's not a smooth course, right? You're going down, you're going up. And so we obviously we we we train for that, right?

SPEAKER_03 21:47

But like um a lot yeah, we trained a lot, we did a lot of heliorons and and you were always focusing on on understanding how it should feel instead of what the pace says. I think.

Jacob Phillips 22:01

Yeah. Well, and I mean I'm looking at this and like the the the pace variation, I mean, like I'm looking at my like maybe fift uh you know basically 15 seconds was difference between the fastest 5k and the slowest 5k, right? Like that's really probably the last mile that that I picked it up, right? And and so and then let me jump to uh so so we did the Boston, you went, you know, sub three for the first time.

SPEAKER_03 22:29

Um and then like uh and and that's the thing, like when I was finishing that Boston, uh I was very conservative because the goal the goal was sub three, yeah. Yes. So I like I was very, very conservative and very consistent because I knew that the pace I needed to kind of roll with so I could ensure that I was going to be able to hit that sub three. And and we were always talking that you know we need to reach that 35-32 kilometer marker and and and and still feel that we have legs. So I was I was being very conservative, but once we once you know the downhill started after the the hills in in Newton, which trust me, I mean, people have not run Boston, it's not a big deal. The thing is you're tired, yeah. And then and then heels are still there after, so and then there's still there's some downhill. So I was afraid of also on the slight downhills to have like an injury, it was slippery, it was very cold as well. It was raining, so I was I was very conservative, but I felt like on the last three kilometers, I had so much more left that I really pushed. And so when I finished Boston, I I felt very happy, but at the same time, it there was immediately that what if like how much faster can I run? Because I I felt I finished so much stronger that that's what carried over to the CIM cycle. And I think I I I I think I've I've signed up to CIM even before running Boston because I was kind of already feeling very confident.

Jacob Phillips 24:08

Yeah, yeah. Well, and and what's crazy is so yeah, so you ran boss, and we were we were we were we wanted to make sure we broke our goal, right? But you're running, you know, uh and I'm gonna I'm gonna use the mile pace here, but you're running 645 to 650 pace. And then we we took a very relaxed summer because I think uh April, May, we we barely did anything. We're just kind of staying in shape, kind of staying and then we start at some point we start this build up the CIM and you knock it out of the park. I mean, like the I I mean you you ran uh it was 244 57 or something like that, right? 5059.

SPEAKER_03 24:47

So the goal was 245, yeah. And I remember here's the thing, and and I'm gonna kind of jump into what you were saying about the consistency in my pace in Boston, because after that race, everybody that knows me and my family and everybody just started calling me a robot. Like you're a freaking robot, like yeah, it's impossible. There's nobody that can run every single split so freaking you know consistent. Yeah, and and and so I that morning uh CIM because my family were in Ecuador, so it's it's uh the the it's eastern time at that time. It was a little bit later in the day for them. So I woke up and they were already, you know, everybody was awake, and I said, so I feel very confident, uh, and anything under sub 250, it's it's great, but the optimal result would be 244.59. I wrote it in a text message in my WhatsApp, yeah. And and so when I finished and I crossed the line, and it was exactly that time, they were like, there's no freaking way that somebody can say in uh an actual finish time and and and have it exact over 42.2 kilometers. I didn't, I mean, I just said it because I I we were expecting maybe to be a little bit faster than that, and and that was like the goal was either that or less. Yeah, but yeah.

Jacob Phillips 26:16

Well, it's crazy, it's crazy because again, I'm looking at these 5k splits and and the variation is 10 seconds. I mean, like your fastest 5k to your slowest 5k is 10 seconds, like that's crazy. Like that, I mean it's it's like 11 seconds, right? But that's crazy. And you went from you know 645 to 650 pace to 615 pace per mile, you know? Yeah, and and and so I mean like just a huge jump. And so, like, you know, I I I guess you know, the the the the question is is what like obviously, yes, you became a a very disciplined uh runner, uh athlete, very passionate, very committed. I mean, you find a way to get it done. Like I I see that every week in training, right? But like what do you feel like was the biggest, like like what what do you feel like helped you make the jump from 302 to 257 to 244?

SPEAKER_03 27:08

So when we spoke uh when you know when we're trying to set a goal for CIM, originally I said let's go for 250. And yeah, and then say I started looking at uh you know qualifying times for for other majors and and found out that Berlin was 245 or lower. So we we we set that goal in mind, but then we started discussing the paces at what we were gonna be training. And I remember writing an email to you and saying just by looking at that, it it it scares the sh out of me. You know, yeah. To to to try to imagine that I'm gonna be trying to run 42.2 kilometers over at a at a pace that probably was above my light take threshold page, or maybe uh maybe right on it. And it didn't seem possible. But you you told me, well, if it wouldn't be scary, then it wouldn't be challenging enough. And and so that for me, it's always about the challenge. Like I know I'm not gonna win races. Uh-huh. I started running very late in my life. I was not an athlete when I was a kid. Uh I like playing sports, I love all kinds of sports. I understand a lot about sports, but I was never like a full athlete. I never played varsity sports or anything. I I never made the cut. Yeah. And and so I know I'm not gonna beat you know professionals or semi-professionals or amateurs that that might have a little bit better background than I have. And I'm already 39 years old, which I think I still can be better, but I have this kind of thing within me that it's it again, it's a cliche, but I understand that the race is always against myself, yeah. And and I think it you know it's something you might hear and something you might read all over the place. And it again, it sounds like a cliche, but really as an amateur runner, that that should be your only focus. Is that you wake up and you want to be better than you were yesterday?

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_03 29:08

And if you're older, and if life uh you know does not allow you to be faster anymore because you don't have the same time, then then you can still be better by maybe enjoying it more, by maybe setting, I mean, just setting a commitment and say, This is what I want to run, this is what I want to tackle, and doing it the best way you can will make you a better person and will make you a better athlete, which in this at the end is it's is a correlation for me. So that that's where it all comes from. It just comes from trying to wake every day and sometimes you know, sometimes I don't, I'm not able to run in the morning, especially now with with you know more more children in the house and and the time, uh, it's it's it's very scarce. But I find ways not to sacrifice time from my family or from my job. And then sometimes you you found me doing a long run on the treadmill at 11 p.m. at night. And yeah, I I don't want to, I'm not trying to be arrogant or flowers on myself. I'm just being very honest. Yeah, in order to get that, you need to find that commitment, you need to, you know, be in that commitment to yourself that you want to be better than what you were yesterday.

Jacob Phillips 30:20

Yeah. I I think that's I think that's super like that that you could end the podcast now, right? Like that's the lesson, right? Like the the goal is wake up and be better than you were yesterday. And and you've got to be committed and you've got to be determined to make it happen. And I had a coach um uh like uh probably the last year or two of my competitive running, and he would say, I I remember one time I I I emailed him and said, Hey, I don't have a treadmill, the gym's locked, it's raining, I'm not sure if I'm gonna get this done. He's like, dude, it's it's 8 a.m. You got 24 hours today. Like use them, you know, and and and that's what you do, right? And and like, you know, and and again, yeah, we're you're you're an amateur runner. Um, and sometimes we have to adjust the schedule and we have to move things around, but you still get it in, right? And and uh, you know, so I I think like, yeah, wake up, be better than you were yesterday. Like that's the goal. And and you've done that, you've continued to push forward. And I want to talk about Berlin because, you know, like I remember we're going to CNN CIM, you know, you just had the the new baby, and it's like, this is it, man. I think I'm I think this is it. And now it's like, okay, I'm kind of getting those, I I kind of getting those competitive juices going again. And so like, talk to me about Berlin. Like, how are you feeling about Berlin? Like, what do you feel you're capable of? Uh, you know, now we're we're gonna be about, what is that, eight, eight, nine months post-CIM, you know? Like, what do you feel you're capable of?

SPEAKER_03 31:45

So another thing that it was very important for me to understand during I mean, since I started being coached by by first Ryan and then you is that part of the commitment that you do yourself to to your as a runner is to focus on what your body is trying to tell you. Because if you don't have that feedback and you do not listen to the feedback that your body is giving you, you're never gonna be able to reach this kind of levels. I'm I'm not like super fast, but I'm obviously, you know, I have a very, I would say respectable time nowadays, but I would not be able to do that. Like I started running without without music, without watching anything, just focusing on what I'm feeling. And and I think that's part of the commitment of being better uh every day. Find ways to become a better runner within your training, find ways to pick things up from you know your nutrition, uh, what your body's telling you, how how an effort should feel. You never wake up the same every day. So sometimes your effort, your best effort is not at the pace that you were aiming. It might be faster, it might be slower. Yeah. But if you're able to pick that up from training and be very conscious about your body and how what you're feeling, I think that for me was the biggest game changer uh when I started when we started training for Boston because it the the the the switch changed from pace to effort feel. And and and that really changed and and and it translated into the CIM. And so now uh and I you know just to try to answer the question regarding Berlin, I think as of now, I think I'm I'm I I would think I'm capable of at least repeating the CIM results if if everything goes well. Obviously, we're we're training for for another break through because every single second, I mean, the faster you get, the harder it is to shave off seconds and minutes from from your time. Yep. And and and I'm older, I'm a year older than I used to be, and I have more things going on in my life. But yeah, we have set ourselves a very challenging goal of trying to do the the you know sub 240, yeah, trying to train for that. Yep, which is it's it's it's pretty freaking scary because at the same time, again, we're already running at lactate threshold that was way it's way higher than what it used to be. And now my the the pace that we're aiming to go for for for the full marathon, it's what it used to be my lactate threshold just a couple of months before. Yeah, and so so uh I I guess I want to say that really I I still don't know my limit. Yeah, and so so the the real competitive juices that I said enough is enough because that was a really gruesome uh cycle. We we were doing 110 kilometers, 120 kilometers sometimes per week. There was four weeks that you gave me an optional workout instead of the rest day, and I took it every single week. Yeah, and I've never felt so tired. I mean, then after I started having the rest day again, but I I you know I discovered that there really I mean there could be no limit. And and so I I I won't have any regrets if I try and fail and get the even the same time or even a worse time uh or a lesser time or lot less fast time than than CIM. But the goal is to try and find that that limit.

Jacob Phillips 35:25

Yeah, yeah. And and I think like, you know, and and you know, knock on wood, we've had two really almost perfect buildups with Boston and CIM. And so like they're not always gonna go perfectly, right? But like if you don't try, you don't know, right? And and let let's say we try for it and and the wheels come off. Well, next time you'll be better prepared because you've gone through at that pace before, right? You've made it 30k, 32k. But I don't think that's gonna be the case because I think that, you know, the the the cool thing is is like I think we have a rhythm, right? Like we've we've established a rhythm uh, you know, in our coach-athlete relationship where you kind of know what the week is gonna look like. Obviously the workouts can change and such, but like we we just kind of dial in and we get really, really good at at this marathon effort or this marathon pace, kind of depending on the course, you know, like uh Boston, you do effort, you know, CIM and Berlin, you know, you're kind of aiming for a pace, but like we you know what you're looking for. And and uh and and the thing is, is like, yeah, you're you're older, but I think you're you're better, right? And and you've gotten you've gotten better at running uh every every cycle, right? Like and and so what I want to ask you now is is is is a couple things because I think uh you know we got a couple you know few minutes before this this thing ends or whatever. But the first thing is what is your first what is your favorite workout that I that I assign during marathon buildups? Like what's your favorite workout to do?

SPEAKER_03 36:46

So every every Thursday or Friday that you you I mean, usually you send the schedule for the next week, usually on Thursday. So I'm always looking forward for that Thursday so I can check my calendar and see what we usually do speed works on on Wednesday.

SPEAKER_01 37:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:02

And and so that I'm always like kind of you know looking forward to see what you have prepared for me on on that week, on that Wednesday.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 37:12

Because it's always gonna be challenging. And and the thing is for me now the long run, it's it's very exciting, and but I know that the end game of that long run is gonna come when we do the uh the the test that we know we do. Yeah, but uh it's always that that week that weekday speed work that we're doing, that it it's always changing. Sometimes we're focusing a little bit more on on LT, sometimes we're we're you know more on marathon pace, sometimes. So I like the dynamic that is never the same. Yeah, and and I would I wouldn't say that I have a favorite one, yeah, but I I do there was a couple of ones we did for CIM that we did very long efforts at marathon pace, and and we had a weekday that we did 25 kilometers within the week. Yeah, so we did a couple of times we did a long run or two two long runs within the week, but one was with very hard speed blocks. But I think that the Kipchog special that you write sometimes for me, yeah, it's something quite quite quite cool because it's not extremely challenging, yeah, but it tells you a lot about your body and how you recover between laps. Uh, I also like these blocks that you write for me, that we have very fast sectors of blocks of speed, and then we do float, which is running faster than your easy pace. Yeah, because once you do that, and and you we usually do those on the long run, but I I still find those very, very uh full of information for my body because I'm able to find a pace where I can kind of recover and put lactate or you know push lactate away from my body through respiration or whatever, yeah, slower than it was building up. So those kilometers help you recover and then be ready for the next push. Yes, and and for marathon training, if and that this comes back to you know the commitment that you give yourself up, finding and understanding the feedback your body tells you because in marathon you might have a couple of kilometers you're not feeling well, and then it's okay to push back a little bit, pull back a little bit, and you're not gonna be slowing down too much, yeah. But you're gonna find a range of effort that you are still capable of running, and and and it's gonna end up in a better result than hitting the wall and walking. Yep, and then maybe you can recover and then push again. So those flow, though those blocks where we do speed or marathon or even even maybe even faster than marathon pace, and then we dial back, but not fully too easy. Yes, I mean to a flow. I think those are spectacular ways to learn a lot about especially for marathon training. I love those kind of sessions.

Jacob Phillips 39:59

And and I think the fact that you understand what that's doing is helpful, right? Like, I mean, like you're you're doing that knowing, okay, I'm gonna hit a point in the marathon and I can think about this, right? Like, I think that's super cool. I loved I love the Kipchoge special. I think it's uh I think it's just a fun one. I I you know, a a few years ago when uh he was, you know, trying to break the two hours and that sort of stuff, and someone was documenting his training and I saw this work and I thought, man, like this is like I love that, I love that session, you know? And so um so for those who don't know, it's a it's a it's sets of a 2K followed by a 1K and and uh you run the 1k a little faster. But um, but yeah, that's a that's a that's a favorite of mine as well. I enjoy I enjoy scheduling that and then and then waiting to see what it looks like. Um I know you've got your own podcast, and so what's the what's the name of your podcast? I'm gonna have you send it to me so I can put it in the show notes so I can share your podcast. But what's the name of the podcast?

SPEAKER_03 40:54

So it's in Spanish. Uh it's called Running El Podcast. So it translates to running the podcast. And I pretty much uh after I was able to to do the BQ for Boston, a lot of and I came out of nowhere, I was not a usual runner. And then I was like, where did this guy come from? And so a lot of people started asking me questions, and and it kind of felt repetitive. Uh every every time I was out with my wife, whatever, you know, I had to always go back to this conversation. So I said, I'm gonna put everything I know, all my mistakes in this thing. And if somebody wants to listen to it out there, and I've been able to to gather a lot of friends uh through and make friends through it as well. So but it's it's running a podcast in Spanish, running the podcast.

Jacob Phillips 41:41

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, and so I'll I'll put that info in the show notes um so people can connect. On is it on Spotify and different stuff?

SPEAKER_03 41:48

Yeah, it's it's pretty much on Spotify. And you know, I mean it's only it's only vocal, there's no visuals, there's no video.

Jacob Phillips 41:55

Yeah, perfect. So I'll I'll do that. I'll share that podcast and uh and uh so that you know our Spanish, our Spanish speaking listeners can uh can jump in and and and learn from you some more, you know. But this was great, Santiago. It's been it's been super fun. I mean, like I think like I said, December will be right at two two years, and and uh and like the thing I like is is I can challenge you and you're gonna step up to the challenge and you're gonna be very honest and open with your communication of this what's really hard or hey, I nailed that. Like, and that's when we talk about rundoing, you know, you you like the way run doing works, the matching feature. It only works if the athlete communicates, and you do a great job of that. And so I'm excited for Berlin, man. It's gonna be uh it's gonna be a fast one, and uh we're gonna see what we can do. But um, thanks so much, Santiago. I really appreciate the time.

SPEAKER_03 42:43

Uh I sincerely appreciate uh everything, the time, your guidance, uh, your coaching, your communication. Yeah. Uh and and and and and having me as an as an invitee in this uh space for me, it's it's it's an honor. So I sincerely thank you and the guys at Ron Doyen. Uh and you know, keep running, stay committed, and be true to yourselves.

Jacob Phillips 43:03

No doubt, man. Well, thanks so much. And uh, hey, tomorrow you'll be getting next week's training. So get excited.

SPEAKER_03 43:10

Right.

Jacob Phillips 43:10

All right, see you, man. Bye-bye. Thanks.

SPEAKER_03 43:13

Thanks, Jacob. See you.

Jacob Phillips 43:15

And that does it for this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast. Be sure to join us uh each month on the 13th and the 26th, as we will have uh uh different guests, coaches, athletes, uh, advice. Uh we're trying to be a spot where we can help you take your running to the next level. Um make sure to check those show notes out below. I want to once again thank Santiago for his time, his advice. Uh, this was a great conversation. Uh I coach a college team and uh I sent them a text right after this show and said, You've got to listen to this. This is the podcast that I want you to hear. If there's any podcast That you hear this summer as they're training hard for the upcoming cross-country season, you gotta listen to this one. The talk about discipline, passion, commitment, accountability. Santiago just uh he dropped just a ton of wisdom. And so hope you enjoyed it. Thanks again, Santiago, for that. Join us again. We'll be back uh in July, July 13th. We'll drop our next episode of the Next Level Running Podcast. And until then, have a great run. Thank you for joining us here on the Next Level Running Podcast, your source for training advice from the expert coaches at Run Doyan. If you're ready to take your training and racing to the next level, head over to Rundoyan.com and get matched to your ideal coach who will provide you with the highly customized online training you need for crushing your goals on race day.