Double Threshold Training w/ Coach Sean Henning

In this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast, Coach Sean Henning is back as we discuss a hot topic with distance running and endurance training -- the Double Threshold! What is it? How can you implement it? Should you implement it? This is the what, the why, the when, and the how of Double Threshold training. 

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Transcript

Jacob Phillips 0:17

This is the Next Level Running Podcast, brought to you by the expert coaches at Run Doyan, helping runners of all levels trust their goals on race day by matching you with the perfect coach for a training plan. Hello, and welcome back to the Next Level Running Podcast. I'm your host, Jacob Phillips, and this month I am joined by Run Doyan coach Sean Henning. This was a fun conversation. Coach Sean and I were great friends, but this month we we we've been talking about this for a while. Double threshold training. We wanted to talk about double threshold training, the infamous double T. You know, it's kind of taken the distance running, uh the endurance running world by storm. And so we wanted to talk about hey, it's not that new. Um it's kind of been something that that happened like back in the past, but it's new now. And so we wanted to talk about double threshold training, what it looks like, what it is, how you implement it, when you should implement it, when you should not implement it, those sorts of things. This is a fun conversation where we just got a chance to to really geek out over uh some some old things that have become new again in distance running. Those are always a fun conversation with Coach Sean. But before I jump into uh our conversation for this month, I've got a few show notes that I wanted to point you to below and kind of an announcement for uh our listeners out there. But first, with the show notes, um, I'm gonna have, as usual, Coach Sean's contact info below. Look, if you want to get in touch with someone who can help take your running to the next level, Coach Sean Henning can do that for you. He is one of the world-class expert run coaches here at rundoin.com. He does a tremendous job of being uh relational with his clients, trying to figure out what makes each runner tick and uh and helping them achieve the goals that they have. And so his contact info is below. Um, and if you want to get in touch with him, have questions, or want to connect about potentially having him coach you for your next uh race or your next goal, then uh then reach out to him below. Um, I've also got the link to rundoyen.com. Look, if you're wanting to take your running to the next level, uh if you want to crush your running goals, look no further than rundoyen.com. Uh, we have an awesome unique matching feature that can help pair you with a coach that fits your personality, that fits what you're looking for. Look, if you want scientific, analytical, um we have coaches that match that. If you want someone who's more inspiring, encouraging, motivating, we've got that too. Hey, look, if you want someone in between, we've got that too. And so go to rundoyen.com, use that matching feature, see who you get matched with, and then you have a chance to do a free consultation to learn a little bit more about the coach, their training philosophy, if you think it's gonna work. And so it's just an awesome way to take your running to the next level. Um, but hey, if you're not quite ready for running coach, you can also check out the Doyen Dashers program. For$39 a month, you get a full program written for your goal uh that will take you step by step through the training process. You get access to the training video libraries that we have at Rundoyan.com. The plan is written by one of the world-class expert run coaches here at Run Doyen. Um, but you don't have to have the full accountability of having a coach. You can kind of go at your own pace, you can adjust things, you can move things around, you can start, stop, whatever life is kind of throwing at you, you can make it work. I did it last year. I've got a crazy busy schedule in the spring. And so I said, you look, I want something that's gonna get me back in shape, help me move my fitness forward, but I don't want to have the guilt of saying, hey, coach, uh, I couldn't get this in. I loved it. I loved it. It gave me structure and I just saw my fitness grow. And it was really encouraging for me to have a plan I knew I could trust. And so check that out. I've got that below. Um, and then the last uh couple show notes, uh, if you have yet to hit that follow button on our Instagram account at Run Doyen, hit that follow button. Um, we go live on Instagram each month with Coach Will Benitez. Those are awesome conversations with our world-class expert run coaches here at Run Doyen. We've also got a ton of just great running related content on uh that Instagram account there. But hey, look, if Instagram's not your thing, head over to Facebook and follow the Next Level Running Community Group. That's an interactive group that's very similar to what we've got on the Instagram page, um, but it's for those folks that like Facebook a little bit more, right? So, um, and anyways, uh, that's the show notes. But now to the big announcement. So my guest this month is Coach Sean Henning. Uh Coach Sean and I have known each other uh since probably uh right before 2020. He's a college coach uh in the same division as as I am at my university. He coaches at Biola University there in Los Angeles. And so uh he's relatively new to working here with Ren Doyne, but I've known him for a while. After we talked this month, we recorded this podcast about double threshold training. After we talked, we hopped on the phone and said, man, that was fun. This is you know, this is our second podcast together. This has been really fun. We'd love to team up and bring you guys some great content for 2025. And so uh we're gonna team up. We're gonna tag team this, we're gonna uh we're gonna geek out about everything running related. We've got some cool content, we've got some great topics we want, we've got some uh interesting guests lined up that we're gonna we're gonna get on the show. And so our goal is to not just take you running to the next level in 2025, but to take this podcast to the next level. So um, starting in February, Coach Sean and I will be tag teaming this podcast. Super pumped about that. It's gonna be super fun. But without further ado, uh Coach Sean, Henning, and myself, we're talking double threshold training. Let's go. Hey man, you there?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Hey, I'm here. How are you? I'm good. How are you doing? I'm good. How's the new year? Good. Yeah, nothing uh I we didn't do anything. My wife was like, she had no desire. She was in bed. It was nine. It was eight, it was eight forty-five, I think she was asleep. You know, it was like done, man. So but you know, we got a you know, you have a four three, four-month-old or whatever, so but uh yeah, what about you guys?

Jacob Phillips 6:26

Oh yeah, we were we were in bed well before well before nine. So um, but uh there was a massive uh firework show that uh a property across the the street from our neighborhood, there's a church, and they they had a huge firework show. And so like at 12 30, I mean it sounded like we were being bombed and stuff, you know. So woke us up and caught a little bit of that, which was it was I mean, it was awesome. It's a it was a great firework show. But uh yeah, so we we kind of been, you know, um, you know, kind of like flirting with the idea of talking about double threshold training for a while, and so um we're gonna geek out over that a little bit today. And uh, you know, I'm we're recording? Yeah, we are, we are. We're in, we're in, man. We're we're going. We're going. We're jumping right in. Yeah. No, no time to spare, right? You know. Um but yeah, we're gonna we're gonna kind of geek out over that a little bit. And I know you've kind of used it in the past, and I've never used it, but but and I know we'll dive into it. We're gonna let you kind of be the uh the exercise physiologist today and and describe that stuff. But a lot of people think it's new. And uh but I remember in the early 2000s, kind of when I was on a on a college team, you know, I would be you know searching let's run.com for the secret of uh how to how to be a great distance runner. And there was this guy, Marius Vakan from Norway. And uh and this is what he was doing. I remember I'd go on training runs with my with my teammates and be like, this guy's doing two workouts a day, two full workouts a day. You know, we were struggling to get one workout in, you know, and so um and so it's it's it's it's kind of um an old thing that's become new again, right? Like which we see in every walk of life, these things happen, right? But like let's geek out on it. But but I I guess first, you know, um yeah, let's let's talk about we say this idea of double threshold. What is threshold? What is like like like I'm gonna let you be the the the mad scientist here. What what do you uh what do you consider lactate threshold?

SPEAKER_00 8:24

Yeah. Yeah, so I think um one of the challenges in our sport sometimes is that we've got these this terminology that uh it's not universally um consistent, unfortunately. And so you got all these different um terms like anaerobic threshold, aerobic threshold, tempo, lactate threshold, and and um and I sometimes the the uh the terms are just used wrong, but but also one coach might use uh a term that another coach would would say something different, so it's confusing to athletes, you know. Um but I think for for this, I mean at least for this time, I think we could just maybe use the term lactate threshold. That might be that's what I typically use. And that's that's kind of a Jack Daniels, the physiologist, not the liquor. Uh Jack Daniels, the physiologist. That's that's like one of his big terms, but but but basically the I the idea behind lactate threshold um is running at a high, high aerobic level, um, where you are kind of kind of getting right up to the threshold where you are no longer aerobic, you're now going anaerobic, your blood lactate levels are spiking to the point where you cannot flush out that lactate. So you're essentially your blood's becoming acidic. Um, and I won't get into the weeds on all the science. Um, I was a science major and we could probably talk for like a couple hours on that stuff. But but essentially, um, your your body is not getting rid of the waste uh from from the the breakdown of the molecules that are creating ATP, which is basically that's adenosine triphosphate. That's our that's kind of the gas to the car, if you uh, if you will. Um so you're not able to, the byproducts, you're not, you're not able to get rid of that stuff quickly. Um and so it's essentially making your your system become acidic. You can't function uh very well. Um and you'll slowly, well, quickly, I should say, actually, you'll probably quickly start slowing down, right? So you cannot you cannot maintain that pace any longer. The great thing about running aerobically is that again, just going back to basic biology, you know, an oxygen molecule gives us, I think it's 32 ATP, which is, you know, again, uh that's our that's our that's our gas for our car. And so it gives us a lot of energy with with the breakdown of an oxygen molecule when it goes through all the um the cycles uh in the body. And so um, so running at that level is very efficient. You can do it for a long time. Um, and then once you pass that threshold, um, where it's no longer you're no longer relying on oxygen primarily, you just your body can't overcome the the high blood lactate levels, then then you start to slow down um and you can't handle it for much longer. And so um that's I mean, that's kind of just the the basics of it. Obviously, we could we could talk a lot more about it, but that's the basics. And so when you're talking about threshold, lactate threshold, you are really trying to run at a high aerobic level, and you're trying to get right up to that threshold, uh, and you're trying not to cross it. Um, so I would I would say when I talk to my athletes, I say anywhere from 80 to 90 percent of your VO2 max. Again, another big term, but essentially uh VO2 max just means that the maximum volume of oxygen you can uh um produce at a at a high level of uh physical exertion. Like what's the most that you're you're able to bring in? Um and so you know there's a lot of things to do to test that, but uh essentially what what we do normally with with like our college athletes is we usually run them through like a two-mile test and we get a number, and that's kind of what we use. Um, what they can do for an all-out two-mile you know effort at the beginning of a season, that's what we're starting at. And so we would do 80 to 90 percent of that, give or take, depending on the situation. But um, I know not everybody can do that. Um, so I guess the other suggestion would be when you are running at a thresh uh a lactate threshold level, you want to think off of effort. Um, you can go heart rate, but that's also difficult. So uh most people aren't gonna prick their fingers and test their blood like you you can do. That's what Darius Backin would do. But yeah, uh most people don't have that technology to to do that. But but essentially you're gonna want to look, you're gonna want you're gonna want to aim for a high high effort that is comfortably hard, where if you're running with somebody, you can talk a little bit, right? But you couldn't like you couldn't recite the Declaration of Independence or anything like that. Like you could, you could, you know, hey man, I'm how you doing okay. Yeah, I'm doing okay, you know, like short sentences. Um and it needs to be an effort that that you feel like you could hold. I always tell my athletes, like, if if you don't feel like you could hold this for 20 to 30 minutes, um, then it's probably too hard. Um and then um again, once once you're if you start to feel an extreme heaviness in your legs, you've now passed over your threshold. You're now again becoming more acidic, the blood lactate levels are too high. So really trying to find that comfortably hard effort. Um, heart rate is another way, you know. I don't we don't necessarily need to talk about that, but that's another way you could you could kind of aim for it. But 80 to 90 percent of VO2 max, that's essentially a lactate threshold effort.

Jacob Phillips 13:59

For sure. And you're talking on that 20 to 30 minutes, you're saying, hey, like if you can't do this for 20 to 30 minutes, you're talking continuous, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:06

Yes.

Jacob Phillips 14:06

Right. Yes, for sure. You know, it it it's it's so interesting because you know, when when you and I were were probably growing up, uh high school, college age runners, maybe even early post-collegiate, like lactate threshold wasn't what it is today, right? Like I like I and and maybe it was just kind of coming in, coming on, but I I mean I was I was trained in high school and in college on an interval or repetition kind of based program. Like we were running hard and it was the no pain, no gain, right? Uh but then when you start talking about threshold, a lot of what you said is is like, hey, you don't want to go over the threshold. You don't want to to get to the spot where, hey, my my legs are heavy, etc. And so that was kind of a new way to think, right? But but now when so uh and I want to kind of go back to the 80 to 90 percent of VO2 Max, right? I'm not doing the math in my head. That could be a pretty big difference, right? If you're running at 80% versus 90%, is there, yeah, I know you said like kind of depending on the the situation or whatever, are you starting lower and working higher? Like, what does that look like for you in terms of hey, I want you to run 80 to 90 percent of this VO2 max?

SPEAKER_00 15:15

Yeah, so if we're talking about, you know, this is a double threshold, you know, conversation. So if we're talking, um, if we're talking one workout, um, that's a different story. But I guess maybe we can um if you're running at 80%, you can obviously run a little bit longer, right? Um, and that that serves a purpose, right? Depending on the athlete and and depending on the athlete, depending on their event. Yeah, right. And so, like for you and I, if we have if we have a college athlete that's training for a 10K versus a college athlete training for a 1500, there is a difference, right? And so, um, so on a straight run, yeah, like it might be more valuable for uh uh someone that's focusing on a 10K to be able to get some longer sustained efforts in that are at a lower um threshold um effort. Uh and then yeah, it would allow them to get more time on their feet, right? Yeah, I think when it comes to double threshold, right? So um, so you you mentioned uh back in, you know, um it's funny, I don't I don't even think this concept is necessarily 20 years old. I think this concept has been around for a long time. I'm sure there have been many coaches, if you were to go back 40 years that have experimented with two workouts a day, right? Yeah, yeah. But it kind of became big because back in, you know, he can't he was running in the US. Um, and he I think he did pretty good in college, but not great. And then when he went back home to Norway in the early 2000s, that's when he basically became his own guinea pig, right? And he started testing himself. Um and doing all kinds of experiments with double threshold, even even um triple threshold, like doing three workouts, right? Yeah, um, and so for the listeners, the idea behind double threshold is it's essentially doing two threshold efforts a day, double threshold, yeah. And so giving yourself um, I don't think there's a set time, um, but giving yourself uh some sort of at least a few hours of recovery in between each effort. And the idea behind it was that you could get with with lactate threshold training, you can get more training in than if you were to do a hard VO2 max workout or something that just requires more effort. Lactate threshold, ideally, if you do it correctly, without a doubt, within two days, you should be recovered, for the most part recovered. But some people even within a day, right? Depending on if you're running at 80 to 90 percent of you know VO2 max. And so his idea, Marius's idea was if I can if I can get more work in at this threshold, this high aerobic uh level, if I can get more work in, this will pay more dividends in the long run, versus getting in, I don't know, let's just say I can get in, I'll just make up some numbers, but let's say he can get in 20 miles with the guy who was running a lot more than that, but let's say he can get in 20 miles of of threshold work a week versus getting in eight miles of VO2 max work. He believed that there was more value as a distance runner to doing more high-end aerobic work and putting in more volume than doing less. Um, and and that the quality of work, um, that larger quality of work was better than doing a shorter quality, maybe higher quality, but shorter, and then a lot more recovery. And so that was kind of his um his thought process. And um, and he, you know, he he talked to a lot of different. I mean, the guy, the guy was, you know, we're talking about geeking out about this. That guy really geeked out about it. I mean, he he was talking to anyone and everyone. He was talking with uh, you know, Peter Koe, Sebastian Koe's dad. He was talking with the Inga Britsons uh and and their father, and and really just like kind just living in it, you know, and experimenting. And um, and so uh so yeah, so it has um really become kind of a I would say it's a uh the sexy, if you will, type of training to do over the last probably, I don't know, five years or so, right? Uh maybe even less than that. Yeah. Um, but it's been around for at least 20 years, and even I would say it's probably been around for 40 years. And again, the idea is just putting at least two workouts into a day, breaking it up, um, and allowing yourself to run getting more quality, a little bit lower effort, but more quality, uh, which the the the uh the the idea is that you're gonna get more bang for your buck if you do something like that.

Jacob Phillips 19:50

No doubt. Yeah. And and you know, I think you're I think you're you're spot on there with I have this old, I'd have to go get it, but I have this old uh Bill Dellinger book, and it it's like uh you know, training the Oregon way or whatever. And and this is you know 1970s, and there's a there's a four-mile tempo run, which again didn't really explain what that was, but it said four mile tempo run a and then PM, there were some track repetitions, right? And so these double workouts have been things that have been done in the past, but last couple of years it's gonna it's just kind of caught on fire. When did you start um implementing double threshold with the the the group that you train every day, the college group? When when did you start like looking at that?

SPEAKER_00 20:33

Yeah, yeah. So a lot to be said on this. Uh you know, I would say uh so I started two years ago, um, and I would say my initial thought was wow, this is becoming a thing. Yeah, I should do it. I should do it because it's becoming, I don't want to miss the boat. I better do it, right? Yeah. Um, and I think I've kind of um evolved over time, and it's more um more of a I think this is valuable. Verdict's still out uh on our team, I would say, but I think there's a lot of value to this, but not for everyone.

SPEAKER_01 21:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

And so um I started doing it a couple of years ago. I sat down with some of my more veteran athletes, both on the guys and the girls team um at Biola. And um, I think it was, I don't know, maybe five or six guys, and you know, maybe about the same for the women. And um, a lot of it was figuring out, okay, how can we actually work make this work with your class schedules and all that? Um, and I think some were a little apprehensive, uh, but but they were all willing to do it. And um but I also had athletes that we didn't do it with, right? And so so two years ago, I had a girl that was an all American and she did not do a single double threshold workout. Okay. Because it just didn't fit with with where she had been from a training perspective, her mileage, her load, it just it just would have been too much. So we didn't do a single workout, double threshold, and she was all she's my best girl at the end of the year, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um So you just you know, and and the fastest girl I've ever coached at Biola, we didn't that wasn't double threshold, it wasn't even a concept to me, yeah, right. The most she ever did was a four-mile lactate threshold run. One, you know, just that's it.

SPEAKER_01 22:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:13

And she, you know, she broke 20 for 6k, which you know, obviously, you know, is a pretty good time. And so so I think it just depends on the athlete. But it was something that I felt like two years ago, I'm like, you know what, we should try this for some of our athletes. Let's see how it goes. And it'll be a total experiment. It might succeed, it might fail, but I think it's worth trying. And we did it again this year, again, with a select number of athletes. I would say we probably would do it on the average every two weeks. We would do a double threshold workout on the average. Uh and then eventually we would stop as we got deeper into the season. Um, my conclusion uh after two years is I do think it's good. I don't know how big of a difference it makes. I'm still yeah, I'm still unsure about if it if if it's needed or not, but I I do, I absolutely do see the value in it.

SPEAKER_01 23:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:07

Um, I think a lot of my athletes have gotten really excited about it. They enjoy it and they see it as a really cool challenge, right? And uh, and they're kind of part of this elite group that's doing it, you know. Yeah, four or five athletes that are all right, we're gonna do our double threshold. And so I think they feel really accomplished when they do it. Has it helped them? Um, I I would lean towards yes, that it has, but I don't, again, two years of sample size, I don't know if that's enough to really make a strong determination.

Jacob Phillips 23:37

So yeah, yeah. And I think like all the stuff you said about trying to figure out who it works for, who it doesn't. I I I am always hesitant to change. Like I am one of those guys, I am I am stuck in my ways, you know. Um, you know, I I have a father who has lived on the same plot of land since he was two years old. I mean, he's he's in his upper 60s, right? Like, like like just like we are we are rooted in things, right? And and I look at double threshold and I think, okay, yeah, it's cool. It's fun to watch the videos, whether it's on flow track or all access track. But then I start thinking, I I live in Texas in in cross-country season. It's a hundred degrees in the afternoon, right? And so it's like, okay, we could do this on a treadmill. Um, but then like, you know, some people aren't comfortable running on treadmills or they're not as smooth on treadmills. And so I just I start seeing all the problems with it, right? Like, well, it's a hundred degrees, how would we do that? Um, you know, et cetera. And then I start thinking about like, you know, obviously you and I, we we coach online, we're we're professional coaches. We coach online. There's people all around the world that you know want our expertise to help them, you know, break three hours in the marathon or run their first marathon. And I think you have to be a you have to be a uh in a in a pretty special situation uh as someone who might be working, you know, nine to five or working a night shift to be able to work out twice a day, right? Um that that is like twice a day, not counting, oh, I want to go to the gym and do some strength work or whatever, right? And so I have just always been hesitant to it, but like there's obviously success stories. Uh the greatest runner right now, probably in the world, is is doing double threshold twice a week. Um and so like that's that's where I've kind of always is it good? Probably. I think the the site test tells you it's good, like really good runners are doing it. Um, but how do you implement it? And so I I think like for just for the um the sake of like maybe the the the the person listening to this podcast that's not on a high school or a college team, doesn't have uh practices structurally built into their day, like is it worth that trying to find that extra time if you're trying to run a marathon to qualify for Boston? Like, well, what do you think about that? Just for the for the the average uh you know Joe like you and I going out to get a run-in.

SPEAKER_00 25:55

Yeah, so so short answer would be no. I think uh um, you know, when you're when you're working, when you're working with, you know, uh uh clients that are you know they're they're they have a full-time job, maybe they have a family, maybe they have other responsibilities, they're coaching rec soccer, you know, and the whatever they've got a lot of stuff going on, right? The hope is that you can get in one solid effort a day. Yeah, right. That's just the reality of it. Yeah, you know, I have three kids, you'll soon have you're you're gonna have three kids here very soon. Um, and uh we just we just know like it would be really hard, you know, if you don't have this set aside time, if you're not living this quote unquote professional athlete lifestyle. Um and so I would say for the the normal, you know, nine working nine to five family responsibilities type of a runner that still has great aspirations in running. They want to qualify for Boston, they want to, they still want to run fast, but they realize that they're limited. Uh, yeah, I don't think it makes any sense. I I have coached, but at the same time, I've coached this years ago. I coached a buddy of mine, and he we only did one one run a day. He was, you know, all these all these scenarios we just talked about, kids, work, coaching, all that. He had all these things going on, and uh, he just could not do two workouts a day. There's no way he could do that. In fact, he only ran six days a week, and and uh he only did one workout a week, and then one workout mixed into his long run, and that's all we could really fit in. And he did fine. He ran one a weight and a half, and you know, everything was good. So you can still run well, without a doubt. Um, I think you have to be realistic with your time and and what you can actually commit to. I don't think anybody that's not running at a very, very high level should really consider doing double threshold. Uh, I just think it is it's it's a cool, fun concept, but I I just don't I don't think the the bang for your buck is there. It would be better to have one high quality session a day. Um, even if you're training, you know, it doesn't matter if if you can run 80 miles a week. Like if you really can only get in one serious workout without you know it completely exhausting yourself and having to do it at 9 p.m. at night when all your your kids and wife are asleep, then you can or or husband or whatever, you can go out and you know, it I would say stick to one workout a day for for the majority of people that you and I might be working with.

Jacob Phillips 28:18

Yeah. Yeah, I I I mean, like, yeah, I I agree. I I've never assigned a double threshold session in my entire coaching career. Yeah, you know, like I've never to the college level I have, but yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I've I've never done it at college. Yeah, post I just never have assigned one. Um you know, and it again, it's just not something I I kind of know, and and and but so well without so I I don't just sit all day and surf the let's run message boards, and I'm definitely not an active participant in there, but when I'm bored and I got nothing to do, sometimes I hop on there. I saw this thread uh a while back, and and maybe it's still it's still active on there, but it was double threshold training for low mileage. And so and I haven't clicked, I didn't click on it, I didn't read it. It might be filled with with with gold nuggets and all that kind of good stuff. I have no idea. My question is, is there, you know, we talk about obviously, you know, if you're if you're not in that, you know, professional athlete or student athlete type of setup where you've got this structurally built into your day, like is there a mileage uh like like does mileage matter? Is it hey, it's only for the high mileage people? Does that matter? I mean, like when you're selecting your college athletes to figure it out, like obviously there's a lot that goes into it, but is mileage like per week, is that something you're considering?

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Well, it could be, um, but I but I would say um I would say what I actually saw, I think it was uh Steve Magnus posted something the other day. He's a uh author, running, running coach, uh just kind of a big running personality. He posted something um the other day about coaches needing to adapt and needing to work with different athletes. Um you cannot have one cookie-cutter way that you think something should be done for every single athlete. Um and I think you know, at the beginning of my career, I was probably more along that that mindset where I thought, you know what, I just uh, or the opposite of that, where I just need to, I need to coach this way because this is what I believe is tried and true. Everybody needs to fit into this. Um, and I think it, you know, as coaches, we we certainly believe some things are tried and true, like they're just physiological truths you cannot get away from. Like you have to run to get better at running. Yeah. Period, end of story, right? Um you have to you have to be able to put in some sort of aerobic work to improve your your running economy, your aerobic capacity, all blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. All those things. You need, you need to do that. But I think there are certainly uh uh there's room for um for change depending on the type of athlete. And I think the longer I've coached, the more I've realized, okay, I need to, I'm still gonna believe what I believe, but I'm also gonna be willing to work with a certain athlete to make sure we can because the goal is to get them as fast as we can get them, right? That's the goal they have, that's the goal we have. And so we can't be so stubborn as to say, well, sorry, this is the way it has to go. Uh, because then we're wasting their career, right? Or their their years of of training. Um, and so I think as coaches, we need to be willing to be flexible. Could could could you have a low mileage athlete that does a book double threshold? Sure. Um, usually there's probably a reason why they're low mileage, right? It could be they physiologically they just they just can't handle a big load. And so it may not make sense for them to do double threshold because of that. Um, but I suppose there could be some scenario where it would make sense. Um, I certainly don't have anybody, I don't have any, you know, uh uh athletes that I privately coach that that would do double threshold, and I don't have any low mileage athletes uh at the university level that do double threshold. It's it's really it has been once we're at kind of at a certain level of uh running maturity um and the volume you can handle, then we start doing that stuff. But I'm sure there is a scenario where a gosh, I don't know, a 25 to 30 mile a week uh athlete could do it. Now, I would also say you could also do uh, and I have had a couple of athletes do this, you could do a double threshold, not just running. So you could do a a workout, like a uh actual running workout, uh, and then you could do something cross-training and achieve the same goal, minus the the time on your feet, obviously running, but the the same physiological stimulus, you know, you could do that. And I have done that. So I mean, that's just another route you could go with it. Is if somebody really wanted to try it, but they just knew they could not handle two runs a day. Okay, you you can do a second workout that's either on the elliptical or on the bike or some other you know, cross-training device, and um and you could make it work.

Jacob Phillips 33:04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I haven't thought about that either. Because I like we're kind of in a spot with our college program where on the especially on the female side, we're we're very low mileage. And it that's the first thing I think of. It's like, like you said, you know, the one one girl longest workout she did was a four-mile, you know, tempo run, basically, right? And so that would be a way to maybe um to get in some extra work. I have a lot of online clients that will say, Hey, can I do a bike ride in the evening on my Peloton? And so there's a way you could actually get in um a double threshold for for that, you know, that uh that person that doesn't have it built into their life. I I want to go back, and this is kind of off topic here, and I do want to talk about um biggest pro, biggest con, all that in a second, but you you said something earlier, like when we first started about just all the different terms out there. And and I think like for me, that's kind of always been my pet peeve as a coach, right? You know, I don't know, uh, you know, we we go to sometimes the US TFCCA convention that they have every year, you know, sometimes, and you go sit in on these sim symposiums, these seminars, and you might hear one person giving a definition of VO2 Max, and then the very next seminar, it's a different definition of VO2 Max or whatever it might be. And and that's kind of always been my like, man, like we we need to just kind of funnel this and and have a uh we we need to have uh actual definitions that that mean the same thing. Uh a couple of years back, uh, my team was on a flow track workout Wednesday video and I said, yeah, we're doing some tempo repeats. And it was like it started at tempo and it cut down to VO2 max. And I got flooded with comments of like, since when is 430 pace tempo pace for these guys? And it was like, no, no, no, no, no. It was a tempo cut down to like, but they were so strict on the terminology, right? And I was just using this, yeah, we're gonna start at tempo and work our way down, you know, kind of thing and such. And so um I just I was thinking about that the whole like just this our our terms don't always match up, right?

SPEAKER_00 34:57

Right.

Jacob Phillips 34:58

You talk about 80 to 90 percent VO2 max, Joe V. Heel says, you know, 60 seconds slower than your mile, you know, like there's all these different and it's really hard. Um, but I tell you what doesn't lie, and and I don't have the access to it, I don't know, maybe you do, but those blood lactate monitors, you see it on the videos, they're they're pricking fingers, pricking ears, and and you're you're you're seeing what the actual range is, and that's that's the the truest way to measure it, but it's really hard to do that, right? I I don't have access to that and uh don't like blood and don't like being poked and prodded and all that kind of good stuff. But um so anyways, um that was just a tangent there. Sorry, I had to go in my little pet peeve about it. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 35:33

I don't really want to, I don't really want to yeah, be pricking fingers all the time. Although I'm not opposed to it if I if I if if if I need to do it, I'll do it. But yeah, it's it's it seems like a lot of work when you're already, you know, when you're already coaching so many athletes, I gotta now I gotta go over and find somebody and prick their finger. And so it's a great idea, but you would need a probably a little bit bigger staff to be able to, you know, kind of handle that sort of thing.

Jacob Phillips 35:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then, you know, just like us, uh, you know, you you guys you coach a lot of athletes, and it's how do you how do you test 40 individuals or whatever it is? But um, okay, uh biggest con to double threshold training that you like just kind of spitballing there.

SPEAKER_00 36:08

Yeah, well, so the challenge is understanding um what would qualify as some uh as threshold work. And so I you know, if you read if you if you read Back and basically all his all his information on his his you know two, three year train, you know, training uh trial and error, and um he does a lot of interval threshold work, right? So he does a lot of like um uh 2K repeats or K repeats or you know, it's a lot of broken up intervals. Um and so when you get to he even he even um tested like like what if I do really short intervals, right? What if I do minute intervals, you know? Which you and I, we don't when we think lactate threshold, we're probably not going to oh minute repeats, you know. That's probably not our first thought of a workout, but he's thinking, hey, I gotta do a second workout. Maybe I did, you know, for for the listeners, like what is what are the what is a workout even look like for this, right? Like what if he did 5 by 2K uh in the morning, and then in the evening he might come back and do uh 10 by one minute with a 30 second uh recovery. Well, he's probably going to run them the minute will probably be harder than the 2K's because it's shorter. Yeah, right. And so if we're talking about 80 to 90 percent, that minute's probably like 90%. Yeah. And maybe he's more like 82, 83 percent in the 2Ks. So the minute would naturally be harder, uh or faster, I should say, because it's such a short period of time. I think one of the the cons or uh I guess is figuring out uh being really careful with that that you don't um you don't mess it up and do a different type of a workout. And I've seen coaches that have done this where there's there's their double threshold workouts are in my opinion, not really double threshold workouts. It's doing a repetition workout later in the day and they're running really fast, and which is fine, but that's not a double threshold workout. Yeah that's a that's a lactate threshold workout in the morning and a repetition or fartlic, however you want to term it, workout in the evening, separate workouts. So I think the yeah, the the negative with it is you really have to make sure that you're focusing on the effort. Yeah. And if you're not ready to do that, uh if you just yeah, you you just you maybe you just don't have um the knowledge about yourself, uh or if you're a coach, you know, the knowledge about an athlete to be able to do that, then you should probably steer clear of doing it. Yeah. Because you really have to make sure the workouts are two threshold workouts, otherwise the the fatigue is gonna be a lot more than what uh what you were planning on it being.

Jacob Phillips 38:51

And then there's some risk of injury or whatever it might be. Yeah. Yeah. So you're saying the biggest con is making sure like like you have to be dialed in on the effort or the intensity that you're supposed to hit. So what and I agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah, and when I'm running a double threshold workout, I can't tell you how many times I'll be, you know, so like if I'm with my athletes, I'll be, you know, I'm I'm kind of a dork. I got a little electric scooter, I'm scootering along the track with them, and you know, and and I'm constantly saying, easy, easy, relax, relax, take it easy, slow down. I I'm over-emphasizing the need to keep it under control because I'd rather do that than they run it too hard. And it's easy to chase times in a workout, right? It's so easy to chase times. It looks really cool if you do this. And I see that so much. I'll see it on Strava, you know, like some of the teams that we race. Oh, doubled threshold, man. It felt so easy. And I'm like, 430 pace felt like a dog to you. I don't know if I believe that.

SPEAKER_01 39:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

And so, so really emphasizing take it easy, take it easy. I'd rather you do less, do a little bit less right now, because we're doing maybe we're doing 10 miles or even 12 miles of lactate threshold work across the whole day. That's a lot. That's a lot. So um, so yeah, I think that's the con, is I think coaches could really get excited about fast times and uh they don't really make they're not making sure that they keep it again. If they were testing their athletes, without a doubt, their athletes would um so that's the other thing I guess I could just mention is if you are testing, if you're if you're doing the whole prick in the finger or whatever, um, we're talking about millimoles per liter of lactate in your blood. And so um really probably the range of lowest possible is it's probably like two or maybe a little under two to four, I suppose, maybe maybe in the ones. Um, but really once you get above four, um, you're probably getting it's probably you're now you're getting too acidic, right? And so four is kind of like four millimoles per liter is like that's about that's about it, right? Yeah, yeah, that's the higher yeah, and so that's how the like the professionals will do it, is they'll they'll prick and they'll they'll want to see like, okay, where am I at? Two, two and a half, three. Okay, great. That's perfect. I'll stay right there. Um obviously we're not, you know, we don't expect everybody to be doing this, um, but that's essentially how that's what they're looking for. If people were wondering what are they testing for, they're testing for the millimoles per liter of of lactate in the blood with the prick. Yeah, and it's like essentially it's a they prick the finger, they got a little strip of paper, they they they get the blood, and then they put it in a device that looks like a Game Boy, basically. Um, and it spits out a number within, you know, I don't know, a few seconds or so.

Jacob Phillips 41:28

So yeah, yeah, that's awesome. So so what about the biggest pro? Like, what do you like? Because you obviously decided to do it, biggest pro to do it.

SPEAKER_00 41:37

Yeah, I mean, the biggest pro is getting faster, right? Your your aerobic capacity gets better. Yeah, um, your ability to run at a high threshold level gets better. Um, it's uh it's I have I have leaned more towards threshold training over the years uh versus VO2 Max training because you can get more out of it and it's a little bit less fatiguing. There's still a there's absolutely still a place for VO2 Max work without a doubt. Um, but uh but yeah, I've leaned more into it because I feel like I can get more in our sport. I think with you and I as coaches too, we probably we probably lean into the aerobic development more because we we see like the type of athletes we coach, and um we feel like we can get more out of them if we develop that area. Um and so I think there's just uh uh higher ceiling for developing their their um yeah, their aerobic strength and running economy and um you know mitochondria being more powerful and you know, more capillary beds and all these things that that are just gonna make them better aerobically. Like those are all things I think we we look at and think, I I can I can develop this. This is that's the beauty of our sport, is that's something that you can develop for a long period of time, right? Like a sprinter, you're either fast or you're not fast. We can make you a little faster, but we can't we can't make you an Olympic champion if you're not a good sprinter, right? But a distance, uh in an aerobic endurance-based sport, there is a lot of room for growth aerobically. So I think that's you know, that's the biggest biggest pro to it. And I think that's why I as a coach thought, you know what, I I need to I need to lean into this a little bit and we need to test it out.

Jacob Phillips 43:14

No doubt, no doubt. And I think like even just from my own experience running, like it's more pleasant, right, to than just ripping gut-wrenching intervals over and over and over, right? Like uh, and when you when you truly do run uh the right threshold, you know, the right, the right effort, like it's it's pretty pleasant training, you know. It's a it's it's comfortable training, but this was great. I think like, you know, we covered a lot about you know just the different terminology plus what it is. This was this was this was great, man. It's New Year's. I you know, uh people are gonna be setting their goals and thinking about training and and they they read stuff, they listen to stuff, and and hopefully this is uh this is beneficial to their to their listening, you know. So I appreciate the time. Uh yeah, let me add let me add one thing too.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

Um I think uh you know, I I you know I know you you said That you're kind of it's you know, you struggle with you know adjusting and things. I I I I think you're probably being too hard on yourself. I think you do. Um, but uh yeah, I I I think it's important that coaches are willing to adapt. Yeah, you know, um, I've learned that over the years in one of my favorite movies, Moneyball. Yeah. Um the Billy Bean, who's played by uh Brad Pitt, at one point in the movie, he says to the the coach of the Oakland Athletics, he says, adapt or die. Yeah, right. Yeah, um, or actually he said that in yeah, he said that in a meeting with all the scouts, he said adapt or die. And um you really have to, right? You have to be willing to adapt as things as knowledge comes out, as uh you know, um, as athletes and their needs might might change a little bit. Um obviously some things are tried and true, right? But you have to be willing to make small adjustments uh as you go along and learn and grow and be willing to work with each unique athlete. I think it's super important for coaches to do that.

Jacob Phillips 44:56

So yeah, I agree, man. I agree. It's uh yeah, I'm I'm with you there. Hey, I appreciate the time. I think we're fixing a cut out, and so uh have a great new year. We're gonna our our paths will cross for sure this year.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Yep, I'll see you out here in April.

Jacob Phillips 45:09

All right, man.

SPEAKER_00 45:10

See ya. Bye-bye. All right, buddy. Take care. Bye.

Jacob Phillips 45:12

And that does it for this month's episode of the Next Level Running podcast. I want to thank Coach Sean Henning for his time, and I want to welcome him onto the podcast starting next month. Super excited for that. Hey, look, if you enjoyed this conversation, um be sure to check us out. Each month we drop uh typically an Instagram live on the 13th of each month and the full form podcast on the 26th of each month. We'll be back next month, ready to uh get after it, jump into some cool topics, have some uh some awesome guests on. But once again, thanks so much for uh for taking the time to listen. Go check out those show notes below. Hey, if you're thinking about double threshold training, hopefully you learned something about it today, maybe when to implement it, when not to implement it. And so, but yeah, thanks so much again, and until next time, have a great run. Thank you for joining us here on the Next Level Running Podcast, your source for training advice from the expert coaches at Rundoyen. If you're ready to take your training and racing to the next level, head over to Rundoyan.com and get matched to your ideal coach who will provide you with the highly customized online training you need for crushing your goals on race day.