Real Life Runners -- Angie Brown

In this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast Angie Brown of Real Life Runners joins me to talk about the Real Life Runners and women's running! Angie and her husband Kevin started the Real Life Runners as a resource for runners and health-minded individuals to get on track to healthy living.

They like to say "Our lives are meant to be awesome. And we wanna show people the shortcut to better health through running, exercise and nutrition." They put a distinct purpose on every run and every workout. They want to make sure that you are healthy and avoiding the cycle of injury and re-injury that many runners face. 

Angie really dives into her passion for coaching women that are entering into their 30s, 40s, and 50s. We touch on how things change and you don't just have to be defeated by that but how you can work with the changes that happen as we age and how you can conquer the challenges you face!

Real Life Runners: https://www.realliferunners.com/

Real Life Runners Podcast: https://realliferunners.buzzsprout.com/

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https://www.rundoyen.com/running-coaches/jacob-phillips/

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Transcript

Jacob Phillips 0:17

This is the Next Level Running Podcast brought to you by the expert coaches that run doy, helping runners of all levels crush their goals on race day by matching it with the perfect coach trending training. Hello and welcome back to the Next Level Running Podcast. I'm your host, Jacob Phillips, and this month we've got a little podcast crossover going here. We have Angie Brown from the Real Life Runners Podcast. And uh we're gonna be talking some women's health, some women's running. It was such an informative and important conversation to have, and I hope you enjoy as much as I did. But I want to give you a little background. Angie and her husband Kevin, they formed the Real Life Runners as a resource for runners and health-minded individuals to get on track to healthy living. You know, they like to say our lives are meant to be awesome, and we want to show people the shortcut to better health to running, exercise, and nutrition. They also touch on mindset coaching. They do some mindset coaching uh before you kind of jump into the training. They they basically cover it all. They focus on quality over quantity, they put a distinct purpose on every workout, every run. They're big in the strength for it. You know, they want to make sure that you're healthy and you're avoiding that cycle of injury and re-injury that many runners face. And so it's a really comprehensive program that they have there. And it was a unique perspective to have on here on the podcast. You know, Angie talks about uh just her passion for coaching women and coaching uh those ladies who are going through that age range of the 30s to 40s to 50s and the changes that happen uh as we get older, you know. And and I love how she talks about look, you don't have to be defeated, you can conquer that. And so this was a really fun and informative conversation. But before we jump into it with Angie, uh I want to point you to the show notes below. Of course, I'm gonna have their contact info in there, the website to uh the real life runner's website, the the link to the podcast, um Angie's contact, all that. Um but I also want to point you to the rundoin.com website. You know, if you're looking for a coach to help take you running to the next level, look no further than runjoin.com. We have a unique matching feature that really will help pair you with a coach that fits the personality or the philosophy that you're looking for. Look, if you're if you want data-driven analysis, scientific, we have coaches who do that and do that really well. If you want someone who's more motivating, inspiring, encouraging, you know, a kind of a companion along the way this journey, we've got that as well. And the unique matching feature is awesome. It really does its job in pairing you with a coach that can help get you to where you want to get. And look, if you're not quite ready for a full-time run coach, because let's be honest, it's a lot of commitment sometimes to follow a strict and rigid program, right? Try the Doyen Dash, it's$39 a month. And it's like to step before having a full-time coach. You're able to get a training program written for your goal by one of our world-class expert run coaches here at Run Joyen. I did it a year ago. It kickstarted my journey back to running. It was great for me. I was able to be flexible with it, move things around, but still have some structure, and I think more importantly, some variety to the training. I I just wasn't going out and plodding along every day, right? There was some variety in there that was not overwhelming. It was really, really good, and I and I really enjoyed it. And so check it out if you can. I'm also gonna have the social media links to Run Doyan, like our Instagram account down there, also the next level running Facebook group community group. Hit those follow buttons uh if you haven't. But that's all gonna be below. Make sure you check that out. But again, this was a great conversation with Angie Brown of the Real Life Runners uh podcast, and you know, I'm super thankful for Angie coming on, and I just hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did. So uh here we go. Hi, hi Angie, how are you?

SPEAKER_02 3:54

Great, how are you?

Jacob Phillips 3:55

I am good, I'm good. Hey, thanks so much for for for joining us today.

SPEAKER_02 3:58

Um Absolutely how how is it?

Jacob Phillips 4:00

You're in Florida, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:02

I am.

Jacob Phillips 4:02

How is it there?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

It's hot and uh very hot.

Jacob Phillips 4:07

Yes, yes. We we've had uh I'm in Texas, we've had some uh some rain all week, so it's cooled it off, but uh I guess any run is a good run. But I I was splashing through the puddles this morning and I was just kind of uh I was I was hating every step of it for some reason today. So but um but yeah, thanks so much for being here. I'm I'm I'm gonna just let you um you know kind of introduce yourself. I know you're you know it's kind of a uh a podcast crossover, you know. You guys have the the real life runners podcast and and such, but uh but yeah, I want to let you introduce yourself and then yeah, kind of maybe jump in from there. That sound like a plan?

SPEAKER_02 4:41

Sounds good. Are we are we like are we starting now?

Jacob Phillips 4:44

Yeah, we're we're rolling. We're rolling. Yes, we're going. So yeah, so so tell them, tell them who you are, what you know, what you're with, all that kind of good stuff, and then we'll kind of kind of kind of jump in.

SPEAKER_02 4:53

All right, cool. Sounds good. Hi, everybody. My name is Angie Brown. I am a doctor of physical therapy. I'm a physical I've been a physical therapist now for about 18 years. I'm a running coach, I'm a mom, I'm a wife, um, and I'm a runner. So um I have been, like I said, a PT for over 18 years now, um, and then got into like the running world, have always kind of run. Um well, I shouldn't say have always kind of. I used to hate running, I'll be honest with you guys. Um, I used to absolutely hate running. Running was always punishment. I played volleyball, basketball, and softball growing up, and running was always punishment. So I got into running a little bit later in life. And um kind of my entry into the whole running coach world, my husband coached cross-country and he brought me in to do that with him because with my background as a physical therapist, you know, getting into the strength and conditioning side of things, trying to keep these runners away from injury. And it was fun working with them. And I just wanted to continue to work with more people on a preventative and proactive basis because as a clinician, I quickly learned that so many things that I saw in the clinic, so many of the problems that people were experiencing could have been prevented with some lifestyle changes. And so I just quickly realized that our healthcare system is a very reactive healthcare system. You know, it treats disease and problems. And I wanted to flip over more into the wellness world and help people prevent those problems from happening. So that's kind of how I got into coaching and really learning a lot more than just the medical side of things, looking more into nutrition and lifestyle and how all of this plays a role into how we feel and how we perform and how our bodies are able to function. So that's a little bit about how I kind of got into this.

Jacob Phillips 6:42

Yeah, that's awesome. And and you know, if you go to your, and I and I'll have in the show notes below, I'll have your website, link to your podcast, all that kind of good stuff. So um people can can find you, find your stuff. But you know, if you go to your website, the first thing it says is run stronger after 40. And so there's there's two kind of things I want to jump into at some point from your website that I just loved. Um, but I want to get back to this idea of um being proactive, right? And and I know like, you know, we're gonna jump into maybe some some women's running, uh, some some running after the age of 40 stuff here in a little bit. But um, you know, you you talked about like there's a lot of bad information out there, and and I hope that we can just jump into some really good information, right? You can kind of dispel some of the the bad stuff and and give us the good stuff. But you you said, okay, on the the first thing on your website, it says run stronger after 40. Become the strong and healthy runner you want to be and learn how to avoid pesky injuries along the way. So, like, do you guys focus on that clientele, the the older runner, or are you coaching everybody?

SPEAKER_02 7:46

It yeah, I would say we do focus on the older runner. Um, we do have some younger people as well. We have runners in their 30s. I don't think right now we have too many in their 20s, but because I really have been drawn to work with people that have not the 20-year-olds don't have real lives, but like, you know, when we get into our 30s and our 40s and we have kids and family and work and all these other obligations, how can running fit into that in a very healthy way? Yeah so that running doesn't take over our lives, but also our lives don't take over and make it, you know, make us push running aside either, right? So it's it's really, I think that our sweet spot, the the runners that we really love to work with are the people that are trying to blend both, are trying to find a really a good dance between real life and running, hence the name of our company, real life runners. Yeah. Um, and yes, I think that, you know, through the years, especially as we've gotten older, you know, we started this company when we were in our 30s and we had small kids. And so that's kind of who we like tended to work with. But even as a physical therapist, I've always loved working with the older. I don't want to say older because I really think that there's like a stigma around it. Yeah. And I really think that, you know, part of my mission in life is to redefine, help people redefine aging and help people redefine what's possible as they get, you know, chronologically older, right? Like as that number keeps going up. But yeah, so I would say that right now the majority of our clientele is probably 40 to 60.

Jacob Phillips 9:15

Yeah, that's awesome. I'm 42, right? And and I and people joke around and say, you're like an 18-year-old, right? Like and and and and and but but part of that is is and I I've got I've got three kids and I have an amazing wife. And and so part of the reason I get to, you know, feel f still feel young, but but like I have made a priority of the lifestyle, right? I'm I'm big on the eight plus hours of sleep every night. I I I try to get my steps in, whether that's running, walking, movement, like the sweat, right? I think that's important. But it gets harder, right? Like, and and I think like what you're talking about, this idea of real life runners, like like I'm with you. I don't want people to think like once you're done with team level sports, high school, maybe it's college for people, that you're done with this, right? Like you can and and it's you need to make a space for this. It's it's good for your mental and physical health, right? And so, um, so yeah, so I'm with you right there. I think like providing um being able to show and teach and educate that no, this is important, it's practical, you can do this and you need to do this. I I think that's uh you guys are are doing a hero's job there, right? Um the next thing that that that I that just kind of caught me on your website was this was this statement. And I'm like, man, you are speaking to me. It says, anything is possible when you train in a way that's right for you. And and and like I there are so many cookie cutter programs out there. There's so much, there's so much bad info out there. Yes. But the truth is, is so I I coach, I I have several clients that are just like you guys, they're 40 plus and they are running PRs. They are running faster than they've ever run at the age of 41, 42, 47. Uh, they're finishing their first ever marathon at the age of 64, you know, these sort of things. And so I I completely agree. But what does that mean to you? Anything that's possible when you train in a way that's right for you. So, like, what's kind of the foundation of that for you guys?

SPEAKER_02 11:11

Um, that's a great question. And I think that you're spot on, you know. I think that there's a lot of people that do go for these cookie-cutter plans or these free apps that they just download that are supposed to be personalized, but like they ask you a couple of questions and they tell you that they're giving you a personalized plan. But from what I've seen and from a lot of clients that have come to us after using those things, you know, those those types of programming, that type of programming can lead people down the wrong path because it's hard for AI or an app to really understand where a person is right now. And this kind of combines my background as a physical therapist and then of course as a running coach, but it's really understanding that every single person's body is unique and every person has their own strengths and their own weaknesses and their own mobility challenges. Maybe they're tight in certain areas and then they're weak in certain areas. Um, and just the way that the body is is built as well. Like my husband and I are both runners. We do this company together. We are very different runners. He is kind of your classic, like tall, thin. When you when you think of like what a runner looks like, that would be my husband. Yeah. Whereas I am, you know, shorter, more muscular, and I enjoy more speed type of work. He enjoys more of like the tempo, the long runs. Like he's training for 100 mile races now. I would never want to do that, right? And so there's just you know, he and I should never ever be on the same training plan, right? But if we plug in certain things to some sort of algorithm, like there's a chance that like it could spit out something similar. Like, I want to run a marathon in 16 weeks. But are you even ready to start a marathon plan? You know, do you need a longer runway? Do you need a longer buildup? Yeah, and that's why I think that personalization is so important and really helping people to understand their bodies and understand, okay, here are my strengths, here are my weaknesses, and also here's what I like, yeah, and here's what I don't like. You know, I I was not a fan. I I'm getting more around to like the tempo type of work.

SPEAKER_01 13:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:16

Um, but like I used to hate it. And I but I would love like sprint intervals or like very higher, higher speed intervals. So when Kevin, um, my husband, like first kind of got me into running when I was training for my first half and things, that's what he loaded up my plan with because it made it more fun. Yeah. So when I'm looking forward to my runs, I'm gonna be much more consistent. I'm gonna be much more like, I'm gonna be able to put more effort in, I'm gonna get better results. And so I think that's what it is. Like, there's our training plans, like, yes, there are some certain fundamentals and foundations that need to go into every training plan. You need to have a certain number of runs per week, depending on you know who you are and what you're training for. You need to have different types of runs. Like you might need a long run, you might need some speed work. Um, and then you have to do strength training. Like it's strength training becomes absolutely non-negotiable, especially after 40. And I think that the running world, I'm just so happy that so many runners are starting to really understand the importance of strength training and mobility and some of the things outside of running that are really important for you to continue to make progress as a runner.

Jacob Phillips 14:20

No doubt. I I think like being what you're saying is is is communication, right? AI can't communicate with you, right? But but a running coach can. And and I I try to ask my clients, you know, either midway through the buildup or or after a buildup when we're like kind of reflecting on what it was, it's like, what did you enjoy from that? What did you not like? You know, and if they say, well, I'm training for marathon, I don't like the long runs, it's like, okay, well, we kind of got to figure that out, right? It's a marathon, it's a long run, you know, it kind of makes sense, right? But like, like I I agree a hundred percent. Like we're not all the same people. And, you know, I I uh I have left running coaches um that, you know, were coaching me because I I was saying, like, hey, I don't like going to the track, like I understand it, like it's inconvenient, it's 20 minutes away, there's no bathroom there, you know, like it just doesn't make sense. Well, you need to do these track intervals. And it was like, okay, well, I'll just find someone who's and like sometimes it like there needs to be a hard conversation with an athlete, right? But but like, yeah, like like come on, like, like blend it for me. Like, help me enjoy this a little bit better, help me fit this into my life. It doesn't work for me to get there, you know, and that sort of stuff. But I love what you said about the the runners kind of um starting to pick up on the idea that you need to uh you need to you need to strengthen your body, right? We we kind of, I mean, even just a decade ago, it was kind of a common thing, oh yes, stress fractures happen, shin splits happen, the IT bin happens. No, like our bodies aren't meant to break down like that, right? And so there's there's an there's an issue there. And so um, you know, learn leaning into the PT side of the world of it, the strengthening side of the I yeah, that's that's super huge. And so I I I agree with you there. When we chatted uh, you know, like maybe two weeks ago to kind of talk about this this idea of the podcast, you know, you had talked about we want to I want to jump into this topic of of perimenopause and what happens to to to to these women as we get into our upper 30s, into our 40s, and and what changes might need to be made. There's some really bad information out there. And so yeah, I want to go into like and first of all, I'll be honest, like for our clientele, like like uh gut check, you said that I'm like, I don't know what per perimenopause is. You know, like like I have a and I have a wife who's into her upper 30s, heading into her 40s, who've had has had three kids. And so I I think this could be a really informative uh thing, not just for the women who might be going through these these physical, mental changes, emotional changes, but also to maybe even their husbands. And so uh I also am a running coach. I coach women in their 40s, 50s, 60s and stuff. And so I think this could be very informative. And so let's let's chat about that. Like I know that's something like you're you're kind of you know passionate about, but yeah, let's let's jump jump in there. Like what's what's going on there?

SPEAKER_02 16:58

What's the yeah, yeah, just let you guys what's going on? Yeah, let's yeah, let's start with like just a brief overview of what the heck perimenopause even is, because I feel like this has become kind of a hot topic word lately, and not everybody understands what it is. So to start, let's define what menopause is. So menopause is actually one date in time where it has been exactly 12 months since your last menstrual cycle. Okay, so people think, oh, menopause is this whole phase of life. That's not actually true. Menopause is one date. So the period after menopause is postmenopause, and the period before menopause is pre-menopause. And then the five to 10 years leading up to that date of menopause is considered perimenopause. And so this is something that does last about five to ten years in in women. And during this time, it's the shifting of the hormones, is basically what's happening. So we as women, we are starting to have declining levels of estrogen and progesterone, which are like two of the main female hormones. And it's not a linear decline. So, like in men, men's primary hormone is testosterone. Men have a very linear progressive decline of testosterone over time, it's a very slow decline. Women kind of have this air, like a zone of chaos, is what one word that like one of the researchers and doctors that talks about this a lot uses. Is that, you know, one month your levels might be okay, and the next month they might be completely different. Like there's just like there's no rhyme or reason to it to the as estrogen and progesterone declines, which is why women feel so out of control. And these declining levels of estrogen and progesterone affect every single system in the body. So every cell in our body, as a woman, has estrogen receptors. Okay. So these things can affect things like muscle and bone strength because estrogen is what's known as an anabolic hormone. It helps us build strength, it helps us build bone. Okay, anabolic means to build up, catabolic means to break down. So as we're losing estrogen, our body has a harder time rebuilding itself, both muscle and bone. Okay. So, as you know, training breaks our body down. When we're doing hard workouts, we're actually breaking the muscle down. And during rest and recovery, that's when our body builds back stronger again. Now we're losing estrogen as women, so it's taking a little bit longer. This is why women are noticing that their recovery periods, especially between harder workouts, is longer because we don't have estrogen kind of there assisting the process. Um, so estrogen and progesterone also affect things like our metabolism and our fat distribution, which is why a lot of women notice that they're starting to gain especially weight around the belly, gain weight overall, but especially that belly weight that is really driving a lot of women nuts.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:43

Um, it also like our metabolism slows down because of estrogen, because of estrogen also affects like our insulin sensitivity. So the way that our body processes carbohydrates is different, like it starts to kind of change. Um, it affects things like our recovery time and our energy, like I mentioned. Um, and it also re uh affects our stress response. So, one of the things that estrogen does is it helps to regulate cortisol levels.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 20:09

Cortisol is our home, our stress hormone, right? And again, when we train hard, those cortisol levels increase. There's nothing wrong with cortisol. I feel like cortisol has gotten a bad rap lately, too, right? Everybody wants to like decrease cortisol. Cortisol is a very necessary hormone, like it helps, it's very good. Like it, it's it um serves a lot of really important functions in the body. But the issue is when as we lose estrogen, cortisol levels stay more elevated. So cortisol naturally has this kind of ebb and flow throughout the day. Our cortisol levels start off high in the morning and they kind of decline throughout the day. Um, cortisol is released when we're exercising because one of the things cortisol does is it helps to mobilize blood glucose. So it actually gets energy and like glucose and fuel to our working muscles. Yep. All of these things are very important, right?

Jacob Phillips 20:55

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

So, but the problem is when cortisol stays elevated, then that can lead to chronic inflammation in the body and other sorts of issues. And um, our body's kind of we have two main modes. We have our sympathetic nervous system and our parasympathetic nervous system. And when our our cortisol and our stress responses stay high, we kind of our body kind of gets stuck in this sympathetic activation. This is why so many women, um, there's a lot of mood issues that come up during this period of time. Uh, we feel like very like exhausted, but also wired because we're stuck in like they say it's like tired but wired, right?

SPEAKER_01 21:31

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:32

And it's like I'm so exhausted, but at the same time, I can't fall asleep because my mind's going a million directions, right? Or my body just won't calm down. Yes. Um, and that's because so many people are stuck in that sympathetic level of activation. And part of that is also because estrogen is declining. So estrogen is not regulating cortisol the same way that it was when we were in our 20s and our 30s.

SPEAKER_01 21:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 21:53

Um, so it it really kind of puts our whole nervous system out of balance as well. And like I said, this. This it these is it's not linear, these symptoms can impact us and it can vary from week to week. And so, one of the big things that I want women to hear is that there's nothing wrong with you if you're experiencing these changes, you're not broken, your body's just changing, like the same way that we went through puberty when we were younger, and our our hormones all changed and shifted, and our body changes. It's kind of like that. That's kind of what's going on now is our hormones and everything is shifting, and your body is changing. And so instead of trying to fight the process, we just have to understand it and like learn how to work with our changing body instead of trying and continuing to work against it. And so many of the strategies that used to work, this is why so many women get so frustrated in this phase of life because what used to work stops working, it's not working anymore. And it makes sense, right? Because our body is different. And so it's just there's nothing wrong with you. It's just that you have to probably change your strategy and change the way that you're training, approaching your nutrition, approaching your body, all of those things.

Jacob Phillips 23:02

No doubt. And I think like this idea of you know, don't fight it, work with it, right? And exactly, you know, we were talking on our phone call, and it was like, you know, I'm working so hard and I'm not seeing the results. And it's like the working really hard might actually be fighting it, not working with it, right? And so so, like, yeah, let's let's talk about this idea of don't fight it, work with it. And I know that's probably individualized for for each person, but but what's some basic principles, some basic outlines or of what that might look like?

SPEAKER_02 23:31

Yeah, uh, and uh so exactly what you said of continuing to push harder and do more is not the best strategy anymore. And that's one of the first things that I think we go to as runners. When we're not getting the results, we often blame ourselves and we like, oh well, it must just be me. It must be something's wrong with me. Maybe I'm just not motivated enough, maybe I'm just not pushing hard enough, maybe I'm just not doing enough. Like we always go to that action, like I need to do more, more, more. And that can really backfire in this phase of life because you know, the when we push ourselves more, and like I mentioned before, how our body gets stuck in that sympathetic activation, when you're pushing harder and training more, that's where you're putting yourself. You're putting yourself in sympathetic activation. We already have a lot of that, and not plus like even outside of our training, add on just life stress, right?

Jacob Phillips 24:22

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

That plays a huge role in how your body is responding to training as well. Because if you have a lot of outside stress in midlife, you know, in your 40s, we've got kids, some of us have aging parents, like there's a lot going on. That's going to affect how your body responds to training as well. And so if you continue to just push harder and just do more, you're really just leading down the road of burnout, of injury, and of stagnation because your body can't gain the benefits of that, especially if you're not giving yourself enough rest and recovery to go along with it, which most people aren't. Most people are taking away their rest days or the recovery days, thinking, I need to train more. And it's really just leading to the opposite results. So that's one of the really big strategies that we want to avoid as we get into this phase of life of like the just do more and push harder strategy, that no pain, no gain mentality that so many runners have. Like, yeah, no pain, no gain. That that might be a good strategy in a race. Yeah. But not every single day of training, right? I think that that's the big thing is like knowing that there's a time and a place for this, and really understanding when to listen to your body and when it's okay for you to push harder and when it's really important for you to take a step back and to pull back and give yourself maybe an even extra rest day, some additional recovery. I think that's really, really important. And then the second thing that I think that women do, especially men maybe, but I think especially women fall into this trap is the whole eat less and move more idea, right? When we notice that our bodies are gaining weight and we are having changes in fat distribution, all of a sudden we have this belly that was never there before. We fall back into the diet culture that we've been programmed into our entire life. And that is eat less and move more. And so women start restricting. And that restriction, that calorie restriction, can really lead to some major problems, especially as runners, because we as runners, you're already an active person. Yeah. Eat less and move more is good advice for a sedentary obese person, right? It is not good advice for someone that is already out there running and watching what they eat. It's not like most runners are they're aware of what they're eating. They're they're trying to eat healthier, they they're trying to live a healthy lifestyle. And so restricting calories is just going to lead to all sorts of problems. And I can go into details if you want, but you you get the idea.

Jacob Phillips 26:44

No, for sure. And and I think like, you know, hitting on both those, the first thing, like, I think like, you know, this idea of when this starts happening, right? And it's like, well, I got to push harder, or maybe I'm not tough. Like that is a cheap and lazy go-to. If, if, if, if a as a coach, right? You know, like like we have to start being more intentional with the planning, right? And and it can it can look like other forms of of of training, maybe that aren't putting a pounding on your body, and maybe maybe cross-training becomes uh something that you're doing. Maybe uh strength training should be what you're doing anyways, right? Especially as we age, right?

SPEAKER_02 27:21

Like Yes.

Jacob Phillips 27:22

Yes, especially as we age, you should be doing it all the time. But like it's but especially as we age, right? Like like um and and and and then like you know, maybe it's a focus on um, and you gotta be careful how you how you phase this, but or but phrase this, but like more quality versus the quantity, right? Like like you said, picking and choosing, right? Like yes, push, strain in that race, yeah. Not every single day, you know, but but choosing your quality days. But yeah, I I agree with you on this idea of the the eat less, move more to, you know, um, yeah, there's there's obviously uh instances or for people who that might work for, but if you are an athlete that is that is out there running, training, moving, um, yes, you should your your diet should be additive, not restrictive, right? Right now, if you're only drinking soda and eating cheese puffs, yeah, restrict that for sure, right? But but like, you know, obviously there's some common sense there, but I I think like one of the things I even tell my college athletes is, you know, because they'll come in with this great idea. I'm gonna remove all sugar. Okay, first of all, that's a that's a terrible idea. Like your body needs sugar to function, right? Like um maybe it should be additive, right? We're we're adding something versus taking something away, right? If you're drinking Starbucks coffee, you know, at every at every meal, maybe that's a maybe that's an issue, right? But um, but anyways, so yeah, so I I completely agree there.

SPEAKER_02 28:43

What like um hold on before before we move on, I want to just make a comment on what you just said of like if you're drinking Starbucks coffee at every meal, maybe we can take away there. But a reason that a lot of people drink the Starbucks coffee at every meal is because they're not fueling your their bodies well enough it overall, right? So it that is an additive thing, and like oftentimes when we add the right things to our nutrition plan, then we just don't want the other stuff. We don't want all of the excess sugar, all the excess caffeine that so many people are consuming. So many people are consuming that because they're not fueling their bodies well enough. And so that sugar, that caffeine, those are those extra hits because they're so exhausted. They need the extra hits to like keep them going, right? So, yes, I still think it's a good conversation about like what do we need to add to you to like make sure that you're fueling yourself and giving your body what it needs.

Jacob Phillips 29:33

No doubt, no doubt. I mean, like you shouldn't need that pick me up if you're doing the other things well, right? Exactly. So, like for you guys, when you're when you're dealing with these, um we've kind of kind of gone all on this rabbit trail here, but like what with so so you you've you've got a female client, she's 45, she comes to you and she says, I I I just want to feel good running again.

SPEAKER_01 29:58

Yeah.

Jacob Phillips 29:58

Um, like what how do you start with that? I mean, are you getting a background on on what they've done? Like, like how do you how do you approach that? Because like running should continue to feel good. I mean, like it's not supposed, you know, you talked about your your background was, man, running was punishment. It was miserable, right? But it should be enjoyable. I mean, like, that's why I still do it at the age of 42, right? Like I I I want to enjoy it. And there's a lot of benefits outside of just the physical side of it, but like, like, how are you approaching these clients that are coming to you and saying, I just, I just, I'm not who I was 10 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 30:28

Yeah. Uh, I encourage them to accept that fact and see the beauty in that because thank God we're not the same people we were 10 years ago, right? Like that shows that you've grown. And I think that that's a really big piece of like meeting people where they are. That's like one of the things I say all the time to my clients like, I love, I want to meet you where you are. I don't want to meet 20-year-old you. I don't want to meet 30-year-old you because what happened in the past is wonderful. It got you to where you are, but you're here now. And like, let's look at who you are right now and who you want to be moving forward, who you want to be in the future. What do you want to be? Who do you want to be at 50, 60, 70, 80 years old? You know, are you thinking about your 80-year-old self when you're doing the things that you're doing now? And so a big part of what I do, especially at the beginning with all of my clients, um, like inside of our program, the very first module of all the lessons that they go through is all mindset-based. Okay. It's getting them to shift their mindset because that really is the foundation for everything that we do. Because if people are still stuck in this idea of I need to lose weight, I need to be skinny, they're gonna be continuing to do those types of things that are gonna be pushing them down that path instead of the things that I want them to do. Yes. So one of the main transitions that I really help them to facilitate is this idea of strong over skinny and of building over losing. Like those are two of my primary things because let's let's stop thinking about how much you weigh. Let's stop thinking about you know how skinny you are and instead focus on building strength, both for you as a runner and also for you as a person in their 40s, their 50s, their 60s, because as we, you know, at the age of 35, we start losing muscle mass.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 32:10

Automatically, like unless we're doing something about it, unless we're doing something to counteract it, we start losing muscle mass. We start losing bone. And especially for women in perimenopause and menopause, there's a strong decline of bone and muscle loss after we completely lose estrogen. And so this is the these are the things that we need to be focused on because when we have stronger muscles, we're gonna be able to run faster, we're gonna be able to run longer. You're gonna be able to get the results that you want, but we're just kind of shifting our focus, right? Instead of just focusing on what is my body, like what is my weight, what is my pace, what is my exact, like all these numbers, because we as runners are very just naturally number-oriented people, right?

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 32:49

It's like how much, how strong are you? How do you feel in your body? How much joy are you getting from your running? Because there are so many times that runners allow the numbers to determine how well they're doing and how they feel about running. It's like if well, if my number is was okay, as long as my pace is what I wanted it to be, then I'll be happy about my run. But you know, we can't, we have to kind of shift the way that we're looking at that.

Jacob Phillips 33:15

You know, I I I love you, I love you saying that because I I ask my runners, uh, you know, we use final surge or whatever for our training. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and and I'll comment and I'll say, How did you feel? And it like and and it's almost like they hate that question, I know, right? Because they want to well, how did I feel?

SPEAKER_02 33:33

Well, how did I do, coach? But how did I do?

Jacob Phillips 33:35

Yeah, I like we'll we'll look at the splits. Like, no, no, no. I could care less about that. If you were going 135% to hit the split, that's different than man, it felt like I was floating today. Oh man, I had to work really hard to hit that split. And and yeah, I I love that. Strong over skinny, building over losing. You nailed that. Like, and I I think like just switching that focus. And like, look, I saw your watch, I got the watch. This it gives us way too much, way too much feedback. Yeah, you know, it definitely can. Yeah, and you can use that for for a lot of positive, right? But like if we just get caught up in what this is telling us, well, how did you feel? Right, like how are you feeling with it? Like, um, yeah, I I I love that. I I think you nailed that there.

SPEAKER_02 34:18

Yeah, one of the big shifts that I have to get a lot of my athletes to do right at the beginning is to run slower because they have this idea of like, I need to push hard on all my runs. That's the way that I'm gonna get faster. And I tell them, you know, I teach them about polarized training and like, no, we have to slow down. Most of your runs should feel comfortable. And that is a really big mental hurdle for a lot of them to get over because they have this idea of like, no, like I can't, I can't slow down. That will mean that I'm not a runner, that will mean that I'm not doing well. I God forbid I take a walking break, you know. Like, and I'm like, no, it's okay to walk if you need to walk. Yeah, like the goal of this run is to feel easy and comfortable. And if that means you need to throw in some walking breaks, then throw in some walking breaks. And I even had like one runner who she was wonderful. She like, she put tape over her watch. She's like, I don't even want to look at it. I was like, perfect. Like, if that's what you need to do to actually tune into your body and decide how does this feel? Because most people have never asked themselves that because they think that running is supposed to feel hard to be effective.

SPEAKER_01 35:21

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 35:22

It should every run should feel hard. And if it doesn't feel hard, I'm clearly not doing it right. Like, that's a big one we have to let go of too.

Jacob Phillips 35:28

And yeah, that's wrong, right? Like, yeah, like I 100%. I I think like and and I and I most of what you do is online, correct? Coaching? Correct. Yeah, same, same with us, and that's the hard part, right? Because when you pay for a plan and you're not in person, they're looking for this sexy, hard, like I'm paying for this. And a lot of times it's like you might need baby steps.

SPEAKER_01 35:49

Yeah.

Jacob Phillips 35:50

You know, you you might need to walk before you can run, right? And and and I get that, right? You want to pay for a good service, but a good service is coaching you where, like you said, I want to meet you where you are, right? And so, yeah, you know that I I know you and I both have things to do today, and and and we're kind of running up against our time here. Um I I was I I I you know, I coach college age females, and and some of them really struggle from you know with the with with hormone changes and stuff as well, even at that age of 18 to 22. And I might be sending you some emails, picking your brain on some stuff later. But um, but but before we go, I mean, like anything you want to add to this conversation before we before we have to jump off here. I mean, this is I mean, I I'm a note taker. I took a I took a whole page. So that's awesome. Um, I mean, like you said some things here I'm gonna steal from you probably.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

I mean, I love the strong over skinny building over losing, like yeah, anyways, but no, absolutely, because the more people we can get to get on board with these ideas, the better, you know, and I think that that's really what all this is about is trying to help more runners feel good in their bodies. And and so um, I mean, some of the big things that we just really haven't uh didn't get a chance to to touch on yet would be like nutrition. You know, nutrition needs to change uh as we get into this next phase of life. Also, we as women really need to focus more on our protein intake to help build muscle, um, protein, but also carbohydrates. And there's a lot of women that are afraid of carbs, but as runners, carbohydrates are your main fuel source. Like it we can't avoid carbohydrates, we just have to kind of change them and use them more strategically around our runs to make sure that, you know, because like I mentioned, during this phase, our insulin sensitivity changes as well. So we just have to be more strategic with these things. We it really kind of like the overarching principle when it comes to uh perimenopause and postmenopause is that your choices matter a lot more because estrogen that did it doesn't have our back anymore. Like estrogen was kind of like you know, the cleanup crew of like when you made choices that were like maybe not the the most ideal, it was okay because estrogen was still there kind of cleaning up behind you, but now we we lose that. And so our choices just matter a lot more. And I think that that's the other big message is that yes, choice is like you have a choice in how you show up, you have a choice in how your body feels during this time. There's there's no such thing as an inevitable decline. Like you do not have to decline with age. You can be stronger, you can be faster, you can be have more joy in your running than ever before, as long as you're making the choices that's right for you. So it's really, you know, kind of just again shifting that mindset to to strength, to energy, to vitality, to feeling good in your body and really learning how to read your body's signals because your body's talking to you all the time, you know, those little aches and pains, the fatigue, like all of those are signs from your body to let you know like it needs something. So the better we get at recognizing those things and then figuring out, okay, what does my body need right now? And then how can I provide that for myself instead of ignoring our body, right? Like, especially as runners, I think a lot of times we're taught to ignore our bodies because in a race, again, it's beneficial, but we can't be ignoring our bodies every single day. And so, you know, when we can really learn how to connect to ourselves and connect to our body and give it what it needs, it's going to continue to serve us in the best way, like now and in the future.

Jacob Phillips 39:09

Yeah, it kind of goes back to what you said, don't fight it, work with it, right? And so exactly. Yeah, you gotta, you gotta listen. Yeah, that's great. I I think like um yeah, you can go from the the the training uh stuff to the nutrition stuff to the you know, you said it starts with the mindset stuff. I mean, you can dive into all that stuff and yeah, and uh yeah, this is uh this has been yeah, this has been great. This is this has been awesome. I yeah, I'm I'm I'm fired up. You know, my wife, I think we're talking on the on the call. My my wife is in her upper 30s. She we we have a we have an eight-year-old, a six-year-old, and then oh, a surprise, four-month-old, you know, and and uh and like we always joke every time she starts back trying to run, she gets pregnant, you know, and it's like and uh but like you know, it's like but she you know, you you she says those things like yeah, this is it doesn't feel good, it doesn't feel good, you know, and it's like right, but she's comparing it to what it was when you know when she was you know a full-time runner or whatever, you know, and so um college runner, that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_02 40:05

But yeah, this yeah, her body is so different now. Like after pregnancy, a woman has a completely different body.

Jacob Phillips 40:11

100%, right? And that's not a bad thing, right? But it's not a bad thing.

SPEAKER_02 40:14

It's it's actually really a wonderful thing. Now, I mean, you literally, right? Yeah, tremendously. And so now it's just okay, now how do I work with this body? Like that's it, right? It's just like, okay, it's different than it is. That doesn't mean worse. Cause a lot of people I think think that different means worse, and it doesn't at all. Like it just is different. So we have to, you know, treat it differently.

Jacob Phillips 40:33

Well, and and I think like, and this is this is like I I'm included in this, like we tend to be stubborn, right? And we and we want to, you know, just push and push and push, and and sometimes you have to you have to you know turn away and and do something a different way, right? You you gotta you gotta look at it a different way, and and uh it sounds like that's what you guys are doing with the real life runners, and it sounds like it's a it's an awesome, awesome program. And um, like I said, I'm gonna have all your details in the show notes so they can reach out, check out all that kind of good stuff. But uh yeah, thanks so much for for being part of this. This was this was awesome. This is really good. We might have to do it, do it again, and maybe I, you know, just to to hear about more of the nutrition and and the physical side of training and stuff, because uh yeah, I think this is uh it's a space that's not been kind of uh explored in in depth or uh given the spotlight, you know. So but uh but yeah, thanks so much and uh yeah, I really appreciate the time today.

SPEAKER_02 41:26

My pleasure. This was a great conversation. Thanks for having me.

Jacob Phillips 41:29

Yeah, it was awesome. Thank you so much. Have a great day, great weekend, all that kind of good stuff.

SPEAKER_02 41:32

You too.

Jacob Phillips 41:33

All right, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Bye.

Jacob Phillips 41:35

And that does it for this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast. I want to take some time to really thank uh Angie and the real life runners for coming on and being a guest this month. That was an awesome conversation, and I hope you all enjoyed it just as much as I did. So thanks so much, Angie. Next month, Coach Sean and I will be back uh rocking and rolling this thing through the summer. Look, summer's here, it's hot, make sure you're hydrating, make sure you're running at the coolest time of the day. Um running is awesome, but it is hard. So make sure you're taking care of yourself. And until next time, have a great run. Thank you for joining us here on the Next Level Running Podcast, your source for training advice from the expert coaches at Rundoyan. If you're ready to take your training and racing to the next level, head over to Rundoyan.com and get matched to your ideal coach who will provide you with the highly customized online training you need for crushing your goals on race day.