Cross Country w/ Coach Jacob and Coach Sean

In this month's episode of the Next Level Running podcast we talk about the upcoming Cross Country season! Middle Schoolers, High Schoolers, Collegians, and your every day runners are gearing up for a Fall Cross Country season! It's the purest form of our sport and it's one of the most populated sports in America! This month we dive into all things Cross Country! 

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Transcript

Jacob Phillips: 0:17

This is the Next Level Running Podcast brought to you by the expert coaches at Run Doyen, helping runners of all levels trust their goals on race day by matching you with the perfect coach or training plan. Hello, and welcome back to the Next Level Running Podcast. I'm your host, Jacob Phillips, joined once again this month with my co-host Sean Henning. It's almost that time. Yep. The cross country season, it's right around the corner. And so coach Sean and I have probably been coaching for nearly 40 years combined. College cross-country. And uh and so we just really dive into the sport of cross-country. You know, the fall, uh, the weather starts changing, we're not focused as much on the track, even though the world championships are coming up. Boy, we're getting ready for cross-country. From middle school up to post-collegiate, uh, you know, post-college running. There is cross-country uh around the United States, and so we're getting excited about that. So we jump into um what that might look like, things we're excited for, things we're gonna try differently maybe this year, uh in our own team's training. But uh cross country is one of those things that everyone can do, and I think it's a great way to change up the monotony from either just training for road races or training for the track. It's fun, it's tough, it's it's as bad as natural as our score can get. But uh, before I jump into the conversation with Coach Sean and I, I want to point you to the show notes below. As usual, I'll have our contact information. If you need questions for us or for the podcast, or just wanting to get in touch with uh with you know with a coach, uh our contact info is there. I also have uh the rundoin.com website. Look, if you're looking for a world-class expert run coach to help you uh crush your running goals, look no further than rundoin.com. Our expert run coaches can help take your running to the next level. It has a unique matching feature that I think just fits perfectly for what you're looking for. If you want a science data-driven coach, we've got that. If you want more of an encouraging, inspirational, motivational type of coach, we've got that. And our matching feature will help match you with a coach that fits what you're looking for. If you're not quite ready for uh a full-time coach, check out the Doyen Dashers on that website. Uh, for $39 a month, you get access to our full training library, you get access to a program written for you and for your goal by one of our world-class expert run coaches at Run Doyen. Um, but you don't have to have the accountability and you don't have to have the same uh rigidity of uh just having a full-time coach. I did it uh a year ago. I love that it kickstarted um a beautiful summer of running for myself. But uh but anyway, we'll have all that down there as usual. Check out those show notes below. Uh we're talking cross country running. Coach Sean Henning and myself, and uh here we go. Hey, what's up, man? Hey Jacob, how are you? I'm good, man. It's about to uh we're about to be launched into the fire, you know.

Sean Henning: 3:16

Yes, sir. Uh cross-country season is upon us.

Jacob Phillips: 3:20

You you uh you ready?

Sean Henning: 3:23

Yeah, I think so. Um, you know, I definitely have not felt the need to rush into it and haven't been, you know, it's not like uh Christmas morning where you can't wait, you can't sleep the night before. I've been I've been just fine, and I, you know, it'll get here when it gets here. So uh maybe that's just uh you know 17 years of coaching, I guess. It's uh it's yeah, I know once it starts it it hits hard. So it's you know, enjoy the time you have before before it gets that way.

Jacob Phillips: 3:50

What when do y'all have kids moving on a campus?

Sean Henning: 3:53

On Friday. That's us too. Okay, yep. So Friday, first practice, Monday the 18th.

Jacob Phillips: 4:00

Yeah, that's us too. And uh yeah, that's awesome. And it's uh yeah, I get to this point in the in the summer, and uh, you know, all the prep is done, and it's just like I feel like there's something missing. I feel like I haven't done this, or you know, and and and probably it's all done, but you know, just how it is. And so trying to check those last boxes of gear and jerseys and you know, did I reserve this classroom for our meeting? Did I get this set up for our team team meals and all that kind of good stuff? But uh, but anyways, I think uh appropriate because we're gonna talk about some cross country uh today on the podcast and um and could probably hit everything from high school to college to did you so I know like when you were running as a post-collegiate, like did you ever do any cross country? Like was it uh are were you all roads, like like just just the idea of the idea of doing cross-country after college, uh, I did it, but it was it was it was pretty rare. But like did did you do any cross-country after college?

Sean Henning: 4:59

Yeah, you know I didn't. I I really just did the did the whole road thing for for a couple years and uh and then just kind of got more into coaching, I suppose. But uh no, I I never did. Um I think I did one I did one race. I did one race. Um it was very average, and uh I just wasn't training for it, so I I guess I don't know why I expected it to be good, but um yeah, I think I was pretty content. I always loved the roads, I always loved just um I felt like I was way less stressed out when it was just a a big old road and lots of space and lots of things can happen, and um, so just kind of focused on that. But uh yeah, I mean it's there are a lot of there are a lot of opportunities for people to run cross-country outside of college. You just have to look for them, and it depends on the area you're in, of course.

Jacob Phillips: 5:48

So yeah.

Sean Henning: 5:48

Um, but uh yeah, did you do it do any of the USA track and field or the you know the the cross-country um national championships or clubs or anything like that?

Jacob Phillips: 5:57

You know, I did I did. I I was not good at running on grass. I I'm still not good at running on grass. I prefer the road, I think smooth and flat. And I I would prefer running on the road over a dirt road, you know, like honestly. Like I I like to keep it on keep it on the creep, man. I like the concrete and uh but um I did US club championships I can't remember what year was it, but it was in it was in Cleveland, Ohio, six inches of snow on the course, and um I had run like right below five minute pace for a 10K uh at that point, and I ran over six minute pace at this so I flew out to Cleveland, ran slower than I would finish easy runs for the race, and uh and it was pretty pretty miserable. And uh I think that was pretty much done with the cross country. Every every summer um at the beginning of August, our little little is the wrong word. We live in a major city, obviously in Dallas, but the the r the Dallas Running Club hosts a uh like a mile and a half relay. So it's three by mile and a half, or no, no, no, two mile, three by two mile relay. And one year I convinced my sprints coach to run the middle leg. I said, Hey, I'm gonna run the first and the last as a workout. And dude, it was a hundred degrees and humid, and and uh there's these pictures, and like my my singlet is like stuck to me, like it looks like a speed suit because of all the sweat and stuff. It was miserable. It was so I I yeah, I try to avoid cross-country um like the plague, but I do think it's really good for you. I think like uh I I I I wish that more professionals ran cross-country, I think it would be really beneficial for them and stuff. But for my personal preference, yeah, no, thank you. I like the roads.

Sean Henning: 7:38

So well, I think that's you know, bringing up the professionals, I think that's that's uh a great segue to you know what what you love about cross country, right? Because I think with professionals, the reality is the money is in running fast, right? Hitting these numbers, hitting these marks. And so um with with things on the roads, marathons, you know, you're chasing times, times are valuable on the track. It's obviously a big time uh time sport, uh minus the the championship level races. But but it's different in cross-country, right? Um, and so yeah, maybe you can start this, but what do you what do you love about cross-country, right? Like what gets you excited about cross-country?

Jacob Phillips: 8:24

You know, I think if we're talking about like from the level that you and I are with, with whether it's college or you know, even high school, you know, that's the kids we recruit. I like the team aspect of it, you know. Um, but but I like like when we're talking about the professionals, uh times go out the window. You're just racing, right? And and if you look at some of these, you know, international cross-country courses. I mean, these these guys are running in mud, they're running up the hilliest course you can imagine, you know, like and and I think that's I think that's really cool, right? Because at one point in time, that's what the sport was all about. You were just racing somebody, right? Um, you know, for our level, I I love I love the team aspect of it. You know, track tends to be a little bit more selfish of a sport, right? You're pursuing your PR, you're pursuing your event, you know, like, you know, maybe you were a 10K guy and I was a 1500-meter guy, right? And and we might do a lot of stuff together, but ultimately your 10K race is your 10K race, and my 1500 meter race is my 1500 meter race. So I really like the team aspect of it. Um and and I think that's what gets me excited about our team coming on to campus in a few few days, right? It's the the idea of the team coming together. You know, they've been probably all training by themselves all summer, and and man, we're gonna we're gonna be a team and we're gonna get to try to be the best team that we can possibly be. And so that's that's what I love about it. Um at our level, at the professional level, I love the fact that it's just it's not a time trial. You're going out and you're racing and and and who cares about the time, right? And and if it's bad conditions, bring it, right? Um, but what about you?

Sean Henning: 9:55

Yeah, on a similar note, I think cross country is it's uh it's so uh primitive in a sense, right? Like the running is uh it's just so kind of I mean, even just where you do it, right? You're you're running in a park or you're running on you know hills and you know, grass, dirt, all kinds of stuff, right? You might have a a hay bale you have to jump over depending on the level you're doing it at. You might have to run through a mud puddle, it's all over the place. Um, and the reality of it is all you need is a starting line and a finish line. You don't need it, you don't need to know the distance, and you really don't need to know the time, right? And so it's it's just so basic and simple and right down to being faster than somebody else. And I love that piece of it. I think it's kind of the great equalizer, so to speak, right? Um, oftentimes, and you and I have definitely seen this, you you know, you can have people that are just not as fast on the track, or maybe even on the road, but man, you get them on a cross-country course, and it's like it's things are totally different, you know. It's uh uh they can now kind of go head to head, toe to toe with somebody that maybe on a track is just significantly better. Yeah, and so I love how that can kind of equalize it. Um, people that uh maybe don't need perfect conditions can sometimes thrive in cross-country, right? Right, right. It's not a big deal if there's a hill, if the ground is uneven, um, if the course is marked terribly, either way, they're able to they can just uh compete well and stay focused and dialed in. So I love that about it. Right. Um, like you said, that the the team piece is is so fun because it really is about a group of individuals trying to score the lowest they can score. And uh it takes every single person to be a part of that, right? It's not just having a good number one or number two, um, but you need to have five that score well, and you also need to have a sixth and a seventh that can displace potentially. So there's so much value in having a complete team, and it's it's fun to try to put that together, and it's fun to see a team try to work towards that goal. So that's probably what I like most about it. And um, yeah, and I would say um the competitions are a lot of fun too, right? Yeah, um, we can we can talk about that. You know, it's it's I guess it's similar to a road race, I suppose. Um, but it's so much different than a track meet, right? A track meet, um, you know, it could be literally all day, it could be an entire weekend. Cross country meet, uh, you are you've got a couple of races, people are running all over the place, right? All you know, you see you see you see moms, you know, moms and dads running all over the place and uh hopefully not falling, but sometimes they do, and they don't care. But if they get dirty, they run through a you know a lake or whatever. They're just they're just trying to get to the next spot, and yeah, um it's uh it's just utter chaos. And um, but you're outside, you know, and um you're just you're you're hopefully in a uh beautiful place, and um, and you just know you've got you've got to pay attention for for this race and for that race, and then the day is done, and then you can kind of talk about it. And and I think you know, there's there's a lot happening too. You have multiple athletes racing all at once, so you've you've got some good things happening, you probably have some bad things happening too. Um as a coach, you're just you're constantly engaged because you've got so many things happening within that 30-minute span of time. So, right.

Jacob Phillips: 13:37

Yeah, funny about the you're talking about the parents. I can I can tell this story because I won't say any names, and it was at least 10 years ago, but uh we were they had a had a set of parents that would I remember on the first meet, they were they were like, We're gonna follow you, you know, because I know you know where you're going. But the problem was is their their their kid, and I'm not saying if it was a boy or girl, their kid was a couple minutes behind our top pack, you know, and I was like, Well, I'll be at the next spot before before your kid comes through, you know. But but they were chasing after me, man, trying to trying to follow because they knew what spot, you know, apparently I knew what spots to go to, you know. But um, but yeah, it's interesting. I've fallen several times. Like uh, you know, we we have regionals up in Denver every so often, and it's icy and snowy, and I don't, I'm just very I'm clumsy as it is, and and I've I've fallen myself, you know, trying to go through. Even last year at you know, when we were at nationals uh in uh Sacramento, I mean it was muddy and slick and wet and and like I was tiptoeing around out there so I wouldn't I wouldn't fall and hurt myself, you know. But so I I talk about this with the recruits a lot. Um, you know, obviously 800, 1500 meters, you know, you train a little differently, but like I say that like we don't train a lot differently for the track season um that we do for for cross country. And and honestly, unless it's a long road race, like I I think cross-country training is just really fundamental training. And so, like, do you guys do a lot different stuff, say in track season versus cross, or is it pretty similar throughout the year?

Sean Henning: 15:08

Yeah, uh it's it's very similar in particular with um with your 5k and 10k runners, right? Um, a lot of the energy systems you're focusing on are the same. I would say we we we probably integrate a little bit more speed work um during track season, which I think is okay because oftentimes your 5k and 10k runners they may run a 1500, right? Um heck we've gosh, I mean we had a girl qualify for nationals in the 1500, and really uh honestly her best events probably the 10k. Yeah, but she qualified in the 1500, and so um, so I think you just have athletes running a variety of distances, so there's a little bit more speed work done, but but yes, I'd say the the majority of the training is very similar. Um, I would say the the terrain might be different, right? Um, so getting our athletes comfortable running on grass versus road or track is important. The reality is it is different, right? Um running running on grass is not the same as the road, and running up a hill uh is not the same as running on the flat. And so those are the things we change a little bit. Uh, I think we try to get on grass or at least dirt a little bit more during cross season. But I would say even then the energy systems are primarily the same. We're still put placing a heavy emphasis on the uh aerobic strength component in developing you know lactate threshold, doing a lot of that type of work. And um, yeah, we do more hill repeats, things like that in the you know, in the cross-country season, but uh but yeah, that that's something that could be done in the track season as well. Yeah, it would be perfectly fine to do it then as well.

Jacob Phillips: 16:52

So so do y'all do y'all do like some like you'll do some very specific hill sessions, whether it's a 200-meter hill, 300 meter hill, 400 meter hill, something like that.

Sean Henning: 17:01

Yeah, so one of my favorite workouts, and um I guess if I had to classify it as what it is supposed to be, what it is intended to be, um, would would be a uh it would be a a lactate threshold type workout. I think it can it I say what it's intended to be because sometimes the athletes can push it and it ends up being not what I want it to be, but right it's supposed to be um repeat 400s and the and then the recovery is a jog back down. It's a grass hill, yeah, um all grass, which is amazing, it's great. Um, and the recovery is a jog back down, yeah. But they're supposed to keep it at a controlled type of an effort, right? Um, really, I'm hoping they run about a 5k type of an effort and then they jog back down. Obviously, gravity's helping you out significantly. So they're not they're not getting to that really that anaerobic place because they're only running for a quarter mile, right? At that pace, which is for them should be fine. Yep. Um, and then they're recovering, right? And so we're trying to kind of get more of a threshold stimulus across 12 to maybe 14, I'll say 10 to 14, 400 meter uh intervals. And so that's how we typically do it. Um, I like doing those longer ones. Um, I've done different things over the years. I've done one minute, 75 seconds, I've done 30 seconds with uh more middle distance athletes, but I think in cross country in particular, I love being able to run a quarter mile on grass and go uphill, but it's not it's not ridiculously steep. It's kind of a a nice gradual incline and um and it works well. So um that's probably one of our bread and butter workouts. We usually probably do it like three times maybe in a season.

Jacob Phillips: 18:48

Yep. So we we do the same exact session, um 400 up, 400 down. And I tell them like all the time, like, yeah, there's a hill component to it, but like you said, it's like a threshold session, right? Because you're you know, you're raising the heart rate and then it's it's just come down just a little bit on the way down, and then you're going again, right? So it's almost like that like a threshold fartlic, right? But you're yes, you have it, you have a hill element to it, which I think is important. Um, and we do the same thing. We do our girls will do eight to twelve max, but if you do 12 of those, that's that's uh my mind just went blank. That's a that's how many? Oh my gosh, that's that's a simple miles, that'd be six miles. Yeah, six yeah, six mile fartlic. Our guys will do up to 16. That's an eight mile fartlic, right? That's a big day. And so now that's our older guys, higher mileage guys. Um, most of our guys will do 12 to 16 in that range, but it's just yeah, exactly what you described. Ours isn't on grass. It would be nice if it was. It's on it's on the road. But um but like I did that, I did that workout this morning. Like, so like that that's what I I've been doing it once a week for last month, just so I can remind myself what it feels like when I'm telling the team, hey, this is what we're doing or whatever. Um but I I think like with that with that Hill session, like you know, you talk about like, yeah, you could do that in the track season too. We came out, we came out of the indoor track season, and I was uh especially on our on my men's team side, and I was just very I I didn't like our results. And I said, you know what, we've got this five-week break between indoors and outdoors. We're going back to cross-country work and we're gonna do the long aerobic stuff, we're gonna do the hills. You know, you said you guys do them three times, we do them three to four times in the in the fall. And I said, we're gonna go back to the hill, we're gonna go back to the long progression, we're gonna go back to the long tempo type of work. And we did that for four or five weeks heading into the outdoor track season, and like every guy on our team PR'd. And and we had a guy that ran 49 in the 400, 152 in the 800, 350 in the 1500, and then he went 1450, I think, for the 5K. So he PR'd in the 400 and he PR'd by like 40 seconds in the 5K. So, like just by doing what I call cross-country training, right? Uh it's not very specific, but it's very fundamental, it's very foundational, it's really good work. And obviously, you know, we we at some point we went away from that, and he had some, we had some real, you know, did some real speed work on the track and some real fast stuff. But but I think it's I think the whether you're training for a half marathon, uh, whether you're training for a marathon later, like having a cross-country style segment, maybe before you start that, I think it sets you up really, really well. I think it gets you get you really, really strong. But um, but I'm with you on the goal.

Sean Henning: 21:28

I would say, yeah, well, let me let me uh add to what you said. I I think you know you said it's it's more like cross-country training. I would honestly say we're we're just talking about aerobic strength is really what we're talking about. And so for anybody that's listening to this, really, I think this is a a great reminder that you can train, uh you can train very specifically, and of course there's value to that, and there are many coaches that that do that more, and I'm not saying that that's uh necessarily wrong by any means, but there are a lot of athletes that have been successful developing their aerobic strength and making placing that as the big focus in their training, right? Um, I think it makes people nervous when they uh um I mean I've I'll admit I've had clients, I think they sometimes they get nervous when they're they're training for a mile or a 5k and they feel like our training is more geared towards a marathon. And I'm just trying to remind them, just trust me, we're getting you strong. This will carry, this will carry across to these shorter things. It's not always about doing fast, fast, fast, fast anaerobic things. Yep, the strength is really valuable, and it's also it's a lot less taxi on your body. Um, it takes a lot less time to recover, right? And it'll give you more uh range of motion in what you're capable of, right? If you really dive into just the the whatever the mile specific or whatever whatever it is training, you're kind of limiting yourself, right? Um it might work for that event, but you but you've kind of put yourself in this tiny little space of of what you can do versus the strength work can really carry, you know, to your example about your your your guy that ran 400 meters all the way all the way up to 5k, like he had good range, right? Right, and clear clearly, just you know, hearing his PRs, clearly he's a middle distance focused guy, right? But he's still able to run a respectable 5k time, right? Um, and be a guy that maybe could be used in cross-country if need be. Right. Um, and so he just get he just made himself even more valuable for your team, right?

Jacob Phillips: 23:34

Right, right. And and and be able to, yeah, just to do do it all. So, you know, I as we're talking about this, I think 800 up to the marathon, you've got to be aerobically good, you know. Like obviously there's some spread-trained 800-meter runners, but um I would I was gonna ask this and this might be a training question. This this might so ever every year I'm sure you did you ever read the book uh Running with the Buffaloes? Absolutely, right? So I read it every summer, and you know, you know, in in and at this point it's just like just because of tradition. And and uh, but you know, Mark Wetmore, the the famous coach there in that book, you know, he's talking about like uh yeah, every every year I'm trying to to add a new wrinkle, you know, something I'm doing, I'm gonna do differently. And like what what are you gonna do differently in terms of like cross country training or or maybe you're you're you're thinking of the full year of training. What what's something new that you're gonna maybe try or or do or implement this this year?

Sean Henning: 24:32

Yeah, man, I can't give away my secrets, Jacob. I gotta race, I gotta race you later in the fall. Come on. There's there are no secrets, man. I'm just kidding. I'm just yeah, that's totally true. There are no secrets. There's there's nothing new under the sun. It's uh it's all recycled stuff, packaged in a different way. Right. Um, that's the reality of what we do. But uh yeah, so uh gosh, but really put me on the spot with that one. I'll say there's a couple things we're doing differently. Uh, one thing I'm doing differently, and and this is just the rhythm of our training. So we're we're very fortunate to have races every two weeks this year. It's never lined up that way. This I think is the first year I've ever had that. And so we're actually gonna go once we get to get into September, we're gonna start to go off of a 14-day uh rhythm, right? So we're gonna do more of a uh a 14-day uh training block, which will be very unique because it will actually decrease the number of long runs once we get into the kind of the middle of September and on. And so that's interesting, that's a new thing. Um, but I believe the the reasons we're doing it make sense, it's allowing us to recover a little bit more after races. Um, we're not having to force it in there because that's when we usually do it, and so we've got to make sure we get it done then. Um for for those listeners that don't know this with the NCAA, you're limited to six days of practice a week. So our day off is Sunday. That's that's always our day off, just like Chick-fil-A, Sunday off. That's too um, so yeah, and so now our athletes can maybe run on their own if they want an easy run, but I'm certainly not gonna. This is my this is how I do it. I'm not saying if a coach does it is it's wrong, but I'm not gonna prescribe a long run on Sunday, unsupervised, asking them to somehow get it in there on their own. Go get your 18 miler and 14 miler, whatever it might be. I don't like that, it doesn't sit well with me, so we don't do that. So I've got to find a way to get it in uh in another spot, right? And so so 14 days, uh, that's gonna be unique, but I'm I'm excited for the challenge. Uh, we will continue on with doing some double threshold work. I know we had a podcast we talked about that, yeah. Um, yeah, plus plug for our past past uh podcast if you want to hear more about double thresholds. Uh, we talked about that and uh the value, potentially the value there. So we're gonna continue that with some of our athletes, not all of our athletes, only the ones I think it would benefit and they're ready for it.

Jacob Phillips: 27:00

Right.

Sean Henning: 27:00

Um, and then yeah, I I think uh personally I'm going to control our efforts a little bit more with our E. What does easy mean? Is it an easy, easy, all caps easy, or is it just an easy capitalize the E easy? So we're still putting the quality in there. Um, we're gonna have a little bit of both. We're gonna have some days where I just tell them, hey, full recovery, full, full, full recovery. That's it. Get just get the time in on your feet, and then we will have some days where it's easy, but we still want to recover with benefit, as uh as I think the uh the late great Joe V Hill would would say recover with benefit, right? Don't just waste your time out there. So those are some things that we'll be doing differently. How about you guys?

Jacob Phillips: 27:48

Yeah, no, yeah, and we should chat about Joe, obviously just recently passed away, but um yeah, I think for us, so I was looking at like um two things really. One, like I was thinking about my guys, and and we've typically been a high mileage program, or we've tried to be and run a lot of miles, and and our schedule gets pretty dense. Um, we typically are Monday, Wednesday, Friday, we're doing like some speed development type stuff or or whatever, and then a good longer on Saturday when we're not racing. And you start looking at like, you know, man, if if if if they're getting in a 20-mile day on Monday, or you know, maybe it's a 15 to 20 mile day on Monday with a double, and then Wednesday they're getting in another, you know, 12 to 17 miles with a double, and then they're doing some speed stuff on Friday, and then we're going long, and our go our guys will go, you know, anything from 12 to 18 miles, kind of depending on the guy. We used to do the 20 milers, I'm not as big of a fan of those anymore. But um so I thought, man, like we were coming back on Thursday for some of these guys with like a 10 and 5 double, 10 in the morning, five in the afternoon. That's not really recovering, um, especially once we get into school and we get into racing and stuff. And so uh I think on Thursday, like we're gonna do um, I think we're gonna split that into a five and five. And so those, and some of those guys will do five and cross training, right? And so um we we haven't really done that. It's been 10 and 5, 10 and 5, 10 for as long as I can remember. And so um, so just kind of making that more of a a true recovery day. We call it a recovery day. Oh, yeah, just go run easy, but you know, 15 miles and running twice is is that truly recovery? So that's one of the things I'm gonna do on the guy's side and and and and really that and for that practice, really focus on stuff we're doing after the run, you know, whether that's good stretching or or good core work or good mobility work, hurdle work, whatever it might be, just to just to just hopefully recover and get ready for the next day. That's one thing. I think that the other thing, like um the the we have a lot of new people coming in. Like we have uh a lot of freshmen, uh men and women coming in. And I think I just want to be really fundamentally sound, right? I don't want to do anything that's like um a lot of times as coaches, we either get greedy or or we want to uh we want our uh our creativity. To flow out of us, and we do that in our workouts, right? And sometimes it just it's like, yeah, on paper that looks really cool, but that was probably overassigned or too hard or or whatever. And so I just want to stick to the basics and just not skip steps. And um we we were on a flow track workout Wednesday a few years ago, and it was a fun workout, and it was it was really fast. And and I remember kids will kids will come in the next couple of years, be like, when are we gonna do this workout? And like you forget that like every guy that did that workout was like a junior, senior, or fifth year guy, right? And you're like, Oh yeah, we're gonna do this. We always do this on this weekend before regionals or whatever. And it's like only if you're ready for that, right? And so um, so I think for me, it's like just you're talking about this idea of like really being focused on your efforts. I want to be focused on not getting ahead of myself and and just being really fundamentally sound, doing the foundational work and and hopefully setting us up for a full year of running, like a good year of running versus you know, we get to October and we're fried because we we overdid it with some you know fancy workout that is really cool, right?

Sean Henning: 31:03

Um, so that that that's us well and you said something uh I think is good just to um to highlight, you know, being fundamentally sound. Um and I think we we uh we may talk about this in another podcast, uh, so I don't want to I don't want to dive too much into this, but I think it's important to focus on being really good at the things you're doing. Um and and that includes basic warm-ups, basic just basic drills, being really good at those things. Otherwise, you're just you're just putting stuff in there to put it in there, right? So slowing down a little bit to make sure it's done right. Yeah, maybe you get less in, but I think the value is there long term. It's better to do it well than to do it, and it's just done really poorly. So slowing down, I think is that's another theme for me this year, is just making sure that we do things correctly. Um and uh as I mean, I'm talking as basic as you can you can even imagine, we're gonna be doing that. So yeah, I love that.

Jacob Phillips: 32:05

Right. I I I think like uh, you know, we're it's an NFL preseason, right? It's going on and training camps are going on. And and I think about how those coaches like, man, like that's what that's what when they get to that training camp, that's what they can control, right? And the practices are really planned out and and really uh not planned out from like uh make it really complicated, but like, man, we're gonna do practice really well. And I I that's what I want this year. I just want to get back to doing practice really well and and just building fitness and and and seeing kids get better, you know, week to week, month to month, you know, and and sometimes you might not see that until the spring, right? But um, but I think that's a lesson that like whether it's a high schooler that's listening to this or or you know, you're you're uh, you know, you're you're your road racer trying to qualify for Boston, like if you just do the things well enough and you're just consistent with it, and like you know, you have this time carved out in a day to to to do something, like do it really well, right? And use that time wisely. Um, but uh but yeah, so I go go ahead.

Sean Henning: 33:04

I was gonna say, I agree, and I think for any if we have any uh Ron Doyen uh clients that are listening to this, uh either ours or any any of the other great Ron Doyen coaches, uh just keep in mind, you know, if if your coach is putting stuff down in in your training, right? Uh sometimes it's easy to gloss over the things that seem monotonous. Okay, I gotta do this warm-up or this core work or whatever. But but keep in mind that those little things they add up over time, and they actually are really important. And we understand that there's you know, there's busyness that happens, but those things are important and they they they will make you better over time. Um but like anything in running, it's just doing something consistently for a long period of time. So um, yeah, those little things are valuable.

Jacob Phillips: 33:48

No doubt, man. No doubt. Well, so uh before we before we you know jump off and stuff, uh did you watch the US championships uh what was that a couple weeks ago, last week, something like that?

Sean Henning: 33:59

Yeah, yeah. I watched uh I'm trying to think I didn't I don't know if I watched much of it live, but I definitely watched all the all the uh you know the distance races in particular. I mean a lot of the races, sprinter sprints as well. And um, yeah, there were some there were some great races. I mean the I guess the high I mean there's so many highlights, but I think that probably the biggest highlight is seeing a high schooler finish second and running 142 in the 800. Cooper from your backyard.

Jacob Phillips: 34:26

And dude, funny story about that. Uh second and third place live, so third place finisher is my neighbor, and second place finisher lives about 15 minutes down the road.

Sean Henning: 34:36

So is that where Cooper lives?

Jacob Phillips: 34:38

Yeah, so Cooper's about 15 minutes away from us, and then um Bryce is Bryce is close. Yeah, and Bryce Bryce lives uh one street down when he's here. I mean, he's obviously traveling the world, yeah. Yeah, yeah. But he's uh he he owns a house. Uh he's run with our guys a few times, but um seems to be a really solid guy. But um, yeah, the high schooler, that's that's uh that's it's an incredible.

Sean Henning: 35:01

Yeah, so if people don't know, the high schooler ran one for a 16-year-old ran 142 in the 800. It's the number four time ever in the US. It's a world record for under 18. I think under 18.

Jacob Phillips: 35:13

Yeah, I think I think I think he like got like three world records within the within the one race, you know. Like, I don't know.

Sean Henning: 35:20

Yeah, crazy. Incredible talent, um, very, very exciting. Um, but yeah, the race, I mean, Donovan Brazier, let's not forget about him. Obviously, he had been injured for a few years, and so that was a great comeback for him. Yeah, um, you know, uh yeah, that was the high that was a loaded race. But um, but yeah, I mean across the board, um yeah, uh gosh, Grant Fisher made two teams in the five and 10K, and um we're gonna be well represented there.

Jacob Phillips: 35:47

And yeah, great teams, great teams.

Sean Henning: 35:50

Yeah, it'll be exciting to see how it goes come September. And um, you know, um as always, you know, if it feels like we can't fill the stands at these US championships, unfortunately. But uh I know people care, it just seems we don't we don't it seems like we don't get as many actually out there, you know, which is unfortunate. But uh um but yeah, US distance running is is in a in a healthy spot from a uh competitive standpoint, you know. Yes. Um I think it's on par with any other country in the world right now. And um it's an exciting time to be a U.S. distance runner for sure.

Jacob Phillips: 36:27

It is, it is, man. It makes it makes it fun and makes it fun to listen and learn and see what they're doing. And and what you find out that they're doing is a lot of a lot of what everyone's doing, right? Yes, yeah, there's nothing. Nothing new under the sun. That's right, no secrets. But uh, well, hey man, I know we're fixing to get busy, and so uh I'm excited about that. I don't I don't know if we'll see each other until we hopefully both qualify for nationals, but uh you know that's gonna be in Wisconsin, it's gonna be cold and uh probably snowy, and that's what we face every year at regionals. And when we go up to Colorado, we'll be going up to Colorado again this year for regionals, and uh yeah, but um uh I'll do a shout-out.

Sean Henning: 37:03

I'll do a quick shout-out. I uh do a client shout-out. You highlight one of yours, I'll highlight one of mine. Yeah, I actually just spoke with him this morning. Uh his name's Johnny, he's out in uh New York, New York City, and he's uh he's uh I'm not trying to put his age out there, but let's just say he's no spring chicken. Um but he uh he's running a mile in a few weeks. I'm I'm really excited for him. He's he's put in some great work and he's he's got a busy life, lots of traveling with his work. And um, but yeah, he's running a New York City uh road mile in in Central Park, and so he's been gearing up for this for a while. So, anyways, shout out to him. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes and just appreciate all his hard work.

Jacob Phillips: 37:42

No doubt, no doubt. I've got uh Jenna and Evan, two separate clients, separate parts of the country, but they're both training for a marathon. And it's a it's it's basically the same weekend, different marathon, but same weekend. And and uh I I just there's something about a client that communicates and tells you how it goes and uploads their runs and and communicates. I just it makes it makes our lives a lot easier and it makes it more enjoyable. I feel like I'm actually on that journey with them versus just assigning training and hoping it's getting done. And and these are two clients that I know it's getting done, I know it's getting done well. I know it's I know it's if there's something that I didn't communicate well, they're they're asking that question because they're they're invested in their and they're both have uh kids and spouses and busy lives and and they're and they're wanting to see how good they can be. And that's I think that's really cool. So um, so yeah, so Jenna and uh and um and Evan, they've been like I said, they're gearing up for a marathon. And it's hard to train for a marathon in the summer, but uh they're they're getting it done. But uh well, cool. Well, I'm excited. I know we've got a kind of a little bit of a plan of uh like our next podcast or a couple podcasts about what we're gonna dive into. So I'm pumped about that, and it'll be busy, but we'll get it done and uh it should be fun and and hopefully um hopefully help some people out there. Sounds good.

Sean Henning: 38:57

Absolutely. All right, man. Well, hey, I'll uh uh we'll be seeing you soon. Yeah, man. See ya. Bye-bye. All right, take care.

Jacob Phillips: 39:05

And that does it for this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast. I want to thank my co-host Sean once again for his time and energy and knowledge on yeah, just all things running. I really enjoyed the conversation. Cross country is probably my first memory of running it. And I loved running it in middle school, did it in high school, did in college, and now uh have an opportunity to coach it. And it's just a fun sport. And so if you get a chance, uh go take part in a cross country race. And uh if you want to if you want to get the attempt being tough, go take part in a cross country race. But uh, we'll be back again next month um with another new episode uh of the next level running podcast. And so can't wait to be back then. And uh until next time, have a great run. Thank you for joining us here on the next level running podcast, your source for training advice from the expert coaches at Rundoyan. If you're ready to take your training and racing to the next level, head over to Rundoyan.com and get matched to your ideal coach who will provide you with the highly customized online training you need for crushing your goals on race day.