Wooden Wisdom with Coach Sean Henning and Jacob Phillips

In this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast we explore some of the wisdom from Hall of Fame NCAA Basketball Coach John Wooden. Coach Wooden's Pyramid of Success has many principles that you can apply to your running and to the life and on this episode we dive into a few of those principles! This was a fun conversation that I believe will help you take your running to the next level! 

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Transcript

Jacob Phillips 0:18

This is the Next Level Running Podcast, brought to you by the expert coaches at Run Doyle, helping runners of all levels crush their goals on race day by matching you with the perfect coach or training plan. Hello and welcome back to the Next Level Running Podcast. I'm your host, Jacob Phillips, joined once again this month with my co-host Sean Finning. And this month we dive into some wooden wisdom. John Wooden, a legendary coach of UCLA basketball, for probably 30 years or more, won 10 national championships. We dive into some of his philosophy and how it applies to taking your running together. And it was a great conversation with lots of great pieces of advice and lessons that you can apply to your training, to your running, to the goals that you might have laid out there for you. But before we jump into that conversation with Oshawn and myself, I want to point you to the show notes below. As usual, I'll have the links to the runway in social media. We've got our Instagram there with Instagram lives happening each month with Coach Will Benitez. He does a fantastic job of walking through some of the expert run coaches that we have here rundoin with different topics that have been awesome from mindset to training specific topics to nutrition and recovery. Great topics. So click that follow button there at Run Joy and at the Instagram at Runjoin if you have it. I'll also have the link to the next level running community Facebook group. It's essentially the same content that we have there on Instagram. But it's a little more interactive. You can ask questions, get topics started, get advice, and get answers back. It's a great community to join here. So I have both of those links below. I'll also have the rundoin.com website link. If you're looking for a coach to help take your running to the next level, look no further than rungoin.com. We have a roster full of world-class expert running coaches who will help you reach your goal and help you crush your goal. We've got this unique matching feature that does a phenomenal job of matching you with a coach that's suited for what you're looking for. If you're looking for a data-driven, science fact coach, we've got those. If you're looking for someone to be more of an encourager to inspire you and help walk along the path with you, we've got those two. It will help match you with what you're looking for. But if you're not quite ready for a full-time running coach, check out the joy and dashers for$39 a month. There's a program written for you, for your goal, by one of our expert run coaches here at Run Joy. I tried it a couple summers ago. It was fantastic for me. I loved it. The variety, it was very simple to follow. I feel like I'm an expert when it comes to running. But even for me, being able to have a plan that's well explained, that gets me ready for what I'm trying to accomplish, that was super helpful. And so, look, if you're not quite ready for a full-time run coach yet, check out the joined ashers. But hey, we're gonna jump into this conversation. I wrote down several notes as we went through this just talking about daily discipline and creating behaviors and habits as we're pursuing something. Talking about, you know, there's no shortcuts to pursuing your goals, viewing challenges as opportunity. This conversation got me fired up. So it was a fun conversation comes Sean, and here we go. This is a little wooden wisdom for you guys today. Hey, what's up, man? Hey, how are you? I'm good, I'm good. How's cross-country season treating you?

Sean Henning 3:42

Yeah, pretty good so far. We had our first uh excuse me, we had our first invitational last week. We uh hosted our own our own invite in the women won, which is great. And the guys um the guys did fourth, but there was a lot of good things. So so yeah, we got the the uh the home meet out of the way. You you have one coming up in a few weeks. So so you know there's a lot of work that goes into it. So it's so in some ways it's nice to get it done because then you get that labor some meet where you gotta you know do the course setup and get everything in place, get it done, and now everybody else can do it at the meets that we go to.

Jacob Phillips 4:15

So no doubt, no doubt.

Sean Henning 4:16

How about you guys? You were at Texas AM.

Jacob Phillips 4:19

Yeah, yeah, big meet, and it was it was fun and step forward for us, and you know, we're really young team, but yeah, yeah, I'm I'm kind of I like I'm excited for my teams racing it at our you know home meet, but yeah, I'm kind of yeah, it's a lot of work coming down the pipe and a lot of meetings and just making sure things are set up and you know it's a big one. We had I think uh you know, 50 or more teams last year, and so yeah, um I think it's the largest collegiate cross-country meet in Texas. And so yeah, just a lot. We got some we got you know, teams coming from Canada, California, uh maybe not California, Oregon, uh Colorado, Kansas. I mean, they're coming from all over the place. So we're yeah, we're excited to host. It's just yeah, it's a lot of work and a lot of stress until that uh that last runner crosses that finish line, you know.

Sean Henning 5:04

So um, but uh but yeah, so we're well yeah, I mean, so the the listeners don't know this, but you know, my meets about I don't know, I think I had 18 teams, which which to me is like that's a good that's good. I'm happy with that. You got 50. So we're we're like this is that we're comparing apples and oranges here. Yours is gonna be take a lot more work and you have a lot more runners.

Jacob Phillips 5:24

So yeah, and and and we make a production out of it. I mean, it's a it's state fair, Texas themed, and so we've got cowboys that lead out the racers on horseback. And we've got a country, country western band that that'll play. And um, yeah, it's it's it's a it's a cool event. It's just yeah, it's a lot of work. And um, yeah, and so this is really the first time it's kind of like I I haven't had to manage all the behind the scenes stuff in the past, and and this the first year I have to, so um, or I guess I get to, you know, kind of depending on your attitude, you know. But um, but yeah, I you know, I I figure we can we can we can dive in at the end uh you know to all the things going on in the track and field and running world, all that kind of good stuff. But you know, the this idea of me saying I guess I have to, or no, no, I I get to, you know, you're you're a coach that I think is is pretty heavily heavily influenced by uh Coach John Wooden, the the you know, the famous basketball coach there at UCLA out out your neck of the woods. Um but yeah, we're gonna do some wooden wisdom for for running and and and that sort of stuff. So yeah, tell me about that. Tell me, tell me how Coach Wooden, uh or at least his philosophies have have like influenced you and then and then yeah, kind of tell me like uh some of the thoughts on that.

Sean Henning 6:32

Yeah, so so Jacob and I, you know, we we decided um to talk about this just because as we're thinking about you know things that are important to us, we thought, you know, these are these are some great um these are some great values that apply uh not just to teams, collegiate teams, these these values can apply to to individuals chasing their goals and uh in anything. And and so there's just some great uh just some great little nuggets of wisdom that John Wooden has had over the years and um thought it'd be great to share uh with the with the listeners, but just a brief history, I guess, on John Wooden. So he was a um he was a basketball coach uh for UCLA for many years. Uh I believe he was there for about 30 years, and uh he uh won 10 national championships while he was at UCLA. So um that that is that is very good. Uh he was a very good coach. Um and and he did he did things in a very unique way uh as well. He c he coached some some great names, uh uh names that many people would know. Uh Kareem Abdul Jabbar, his name was uh Lou Al Sinder at the time. Uh Bill Walton was another one, and yeah, and many others, those are probably the two most significant ones, but um, and this is at a time when freshmen were not allowed to be on the varsity team. So you had Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Bill Walton on the JV team as freshmen because they were not allowed. I mean it's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 7:55

Yeah.

Sean Henning 7:55

Um so he had these great teams, um, but he did things very unique. Um, and he he uh he was very very humble man. He did not pursue championships, but he pursued success uh with this with his teams. That was what uh um that was what he strove to do every year. Um it wasn't about can we win a national title, it was about how can we be the best we can be. Um and he has he has a great definition of success, um, that I I think it's probably the best definition I've ever I've ever heard. But uh his definition is peace of mind from self-satisfaction and knowing you did your best. Um so again, um striving to do your best with what you have. Um and so um so it's funny this this this guy that pursued this, he pursued being great, ended up being very great uh from an X's and O's perspective, but that wasn't really um that wasn't necessarily his drive. And he even talks about his his his most memorable season, what he would say maybe was one of the most successful seasons, his team finished one game over 500. Oh wow. He said that was great because they were a very average team and ability, but he got everything he could out of that team, right? And everything he could get out of them was one game over 500. Yeah, so um, which is incredible because you and I think about that and we're like, man, if we were we finished in the middle of a pack in our conference, that doesn't seem very good. Right. Um, but but that was him, you know, and uh he eventually he re he retired. It's interesting, he retired, um could have kept coaching, but he retired because he got to the point where he would get to these press conferences uh before and after games at the NCAA, you know, championships, and everything was about him. And there'll be all these other coaches, top coaches in the country in the room, and they'd wait to bring him out after all those guys got interviewed because he was a distraction. It wasn't uh he wasn't just another coach, he was like a celebrity, and he he hated that.

SPEAKER_02 9:59

Right.

Sean Henning 9:59

Um, so that's when he knew it had just gotten too big um and he stepped down, which is um which is amazing. So yeah. Um but um but yeah, so you know, um over the years he created something called the pyramid of success. And the pyramid has got um, it's basically things that he's learned over the years that he felt were extremely important for him uh in his program um and in life. And he built this pyramid up. He thinks that you know he's got a lot of reasoning for being a pyramid. A pyramid is a very sturdy structure, um, unshakable. You've got a base and you build up to the point. And and so that's kind of how he did it. Um, and this was this has been very well uh highly regarded over the years by by coaches in every sport. Um and um yeah, I think it's worth talking about. So I know we you know we've got a couple of things we want to talk about, but that's that's kind of essentially who he was and um you know how he how he built up his value system for his program.

Jacob Phillips 10:57

Right. And and I think like you and I have probably as coaches, you know, we've we're we're almost 40 plus years combined, you know, coaching experience between the two of us. Like we've had those years, right, where it's like, you know, we feel like we coached really well and our teams did really well, but obviously you can't you can't control the other people, right? And and uh and I think that's his his idea of success. Yeah, it makes sense. There's there might always be someone faster, there might always be someone slower, but like did you get everything out of it that you could get out of it, right? And so, um, and and to me, the the first point that you know when you and I were chatting about it, it it you know, process over outcome, right? That's what that sounds like to me. It's a it sounds like it's a pursuit, it's a it's a pursuit of the process, and the outcome will take care of itself if we if we do the process well. Well, what does that mean to you?

Sean Henning 11:46

So um maybe the the most famous example uh he has for process over outcome is that uh at the beginning of every season, he sits down, he would sit down with his players and he would teach them how to put their socks and shoes on, right? I mean, who does that? Okay, these are elite athletes going to a prestigious school, they could have gone anywhere in the country, they're going to UCLA. And he would sit down with Karim Abdul Jabbar uh and show him how to put your socks on correctly and how to tie your shoes correctly, right? If if that ain't process over outcome, then I don't know what is. But um, but I think the idea behind it, um, and so by the way, this is these this is one of the values in in uh in my program um that we have um is focusing on the behaviors and the daily discipline, uh, knowing that perfecting the process leads to success on and off on and off the course, the road, the track, whatever you're doing. So again, focusing on the behaviors and the daily disciplines, knowing that perfecting those um will lead to success um on and off the course. You'll be successful in life, you'll be successful in running, but focusing on behaviors and disciplines. So that that uh that means every little thing that you know you you may think uh is frivolous and um doesn't really carry much value in what you're doing, it actually is really valuable, and those things add up. You know, there's a lot of little valuable things that if you do these little valuable things um which would be considered the process, right? Um the outcome of what you're doing, uh there's a it's not a guarantee that it'll be good, uh, but there's a higher likelihood that it will be good. You're you're the odds of you succeeding are much better if you've uh taken the time to be excellent in the in the minor details throughout the process.

Jacob Phillips 13:37

Yeah, I I love that. I think this idea of of discipline and behaviors, uh, like that's so there's there's there's roots there, right? Versus motivation or encouragement or inspiration. And like, yeah, that stuff has a place, but like if we can as runners, uh in whatever we're pursuing, but but especially like you know, we're we're we're running coaches, you know, the the the audience is is people who who want to run and they want to run a marathon, they want to get faster, they want to crush their goals, like like developing those those daily disciplines that you're talking about, like uh developing those behaviors, like if you do that really well, you're gonna see the outcome, you're gonna see the results you want, right? And and like uh we don't know the timeline, but like it's about setting the discipline. And and I, you know, I've got a I've got a client um that I've been working with for a while that that has a tremendous story. He was a guest on our podcast um a couple of years ago and and uh or maybe a lot a year ago, and and his story is just one of he said, Hey, look, I I picked up running, I wasn't very good at it, but I thought I can be better. And he said, you know what? I turned to discipline. I I I disciplined myself. And that guy has I I when I started working with him, he was a 3.0 something marathoner. He's run sub 240 now, right? Over the age of 40. That's great. Over the age of 40. And and he just talks about discipline, discipline, discipline. And that's what it needs, and that's what you need. Like if you're if you if you contact us at Rundoy and you say, hey, look, I want to run a marathon. I've never run a marathon, like there's no encouragement that we can do every single day that's going to get you to the finish line. It's you making the decision to be disciplined, to follow the plan, to do the small things. Um, yeah, I I love that. I that that's what we've that's a you this summer were talking about your preseason camp and talking about you know how you're influenced by John Wooden, and and and um, and you're talking about this. And I thought, man, that's what we need to be as a team. We need to be intentional every day with what we can control and and and create those habits, those behaviors, those disciplines, if we're gonna be a successful team, you know, over here in Texas while you're in California, right? So yeah, I I I'm with you on that. That's that's uh that stuff gets me excited. I mean, I love this idea about discipline and and creating habits and behaviors that versus well, I'm not motivated today, you know.

Sean Henning 15:49

Right. Well, and I think it's important for um for our listeners to understand that um this does not guarantee the results will be perfect, right? So um you are improving your odds dramatically, right? However, um I think even if you know, like I have some clients that have, you know, they've they've been rock stars when it's come to, you know, it comes to to to getting every run in and and doing it well, and then something happens, unfortunately, right? Right, right. Um but there's so much personal growth that comes through uh that comes through the um you know just the commitment to the process and the discipline it takes that it's invaluable. You you grow so much as a human being. The other thing I'd say too is um people can be successful not doing the little things throughout the process. They can they can skip steps and still just get lucky enough to have success at the end. It does happen, and it has happened. I I will tell you a quick story. I had a young man um who took a month off of summer training, just a whole month of summer training. This is years ago, just decided I don't want to run. And he showed up and we do a time trial at the beginning of the year, and he crushed the time trial. Now he was good during the year, he was very consistent during the year, but but he took a month off. He took 30 days and did nothing, right? Um and he ended up running, he was a conference champion, had a great season, his best season he'd ever had. And you know, he tried to duplicate that in the spring, took the basically took the winter break off and got injured and could not duplicate it. So, so so the exception is not the rule. Because you hit it right one time by skipping steps does not mean that now this is how it will work every time. You got lucky, um, but that does not mean that's the way it should be done. So it's important for our listeners to understand that. Like you can get away with it, but you increase your chances of succeeding by focusing on the process and being very disciplined and excellent at the different steps in the process.

Jacob Phillips 18:02

So, so you know, not to not to like just keep hammering this this point. I had a student athlete a couple years ago say, hey coach, you talk about trust the process, you talk about focus on the process, you talk about being intentional. I don't know what a lot of people I don't know that a lot of people know what that actually means. And so, like for our listeners, especially those who are gearing up to train for uh you know, people are starting to get excited about Boston, right? Boston is you're not training for Boston yet, but you're starting to think about that, right? Um, you know, that's a big one. And um what's that definition to you? Like, like what does it mean to you um to focus on the process? Like, what's a a layman's term, like a layman's definition of that?

Sean Henning 18:42

Yeah, so um I I guess some other uh some other words I would use um is these are just things that I jotted down, uh following a s following a schedule, yeah, respecting the expectations that are set forth by a coach or a program or whatever, avoiding shortcuts that compromise your growth.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Right.

Sean Henning 19:02

Um so if we wanted to get down into the weeds, um, what does it look like to be committed to the disciplines of a process? Well, um if your coach gives you a warm-up to do before a run, do the warm-up and do it well. Do it well, right. Um but if you see it as a suggestion that you don't need to do, but maybe if I have time, I'll fit it in. Or if your coach applies, if your coach has written down that he wants whatever, 10 minutes of static stretching after your run. Right. Don't see that as a thing that if you can, if you can, you'll fit it in, but if you can't, then oh well. Or if your coach says, hey, I'd like you to do some core strength three times a week, right? Um don't see that as just an uh a thing that you can do, uh, but it's it's not needed as long as you get the run in. Those are pieces in of the process that add up over time, right? Right. Um, and I think um obviously, like, you know, with our with our the clients we work with, that's about as in-depth as we get. Um with our collegiate athletes, we'll we'll probably get a little more in-depth with with with diet and with sleep habits and and things like that, you know, athletic training, stuff, whatever. Um, but not seeing these things as like, yeah, if I can fit them in, I'll get them in. But no, these are things that are important in the process, these are crucial in the process. And so if it's written down by a coach, it must be important. Um, it's easy to just look at the run and say, oh, five-mile run. Okay, cool. That's all I gotta do. You know, that's that's one thing you have to do, but there are other pieces to it. Right, right. Um, and so I think those are the things if we really want to like really wanna kind of uh get into the nitty-gritty of what that could look like for somebody listening, or um, you know, it's things like that. Um and yeah, I mean, because if we're uh as coaches, if we write these things down, right, we're writing them down because we think they're important, right? Right. Right. Um, I have one thing I like to say to my athletes sometimes, and this kind of fits fits uh with this master the boring. Right. Okay, right. Master the boring, be great at the boring, monotonous things because over time, those are really, really important. Um and they just don't know, you know, that's part of our sport. Uh, but I think a lot of sports have have similarities to it, right? Like, you know, if you think if I think about a basketball player, if they have to shoot uh a hundred free throws every practice, right? That is boring. Yeah. But if that's but but if you master it, you get really good at it. Right. Right. And so um that's that sounds like something Kobe Bryant probably would have done, right? Just you know, but but that's why he was so clutch at shooting free throws, is because he probably shot a hundred of them every practice. Right. Um, so to me, that's what it looks like. You're not skipping steps. Um you don't see things as possible pieces to the puzzle that you could fit in if you want. You see them as Really more like requirements. These are these are a bunch of little requirements that will add up to something pretty special if I do them well.

Jacob Phillips 22:06

Right, right. And you know, I I was I I'm trying to figure out what the name of the book was. I read a couple of it was during the COVID summer, you know, and and they talked about uh maybe it was the talent equation. I I can't remember what the book was called. And I'm looking on my bookshelves, I can't see it, but it talked about focused practice creates a talent for that, right? And so uh that's what we're talking about, right? Where like when you say do it well, like do what's assigned and do it well, like be engaged in that, be present, be focused, uh and and do it all. Do do all that's assigned, you know. Um you know, part of that is is the next point you kind of put down is trust and commitment, right? Like that's that's the like those two things should be stacked right next to each other. Process over outcome, well that that involves trust and then commitment to the to the plan, to the process, right? And so um, you know, like I know for me, one of the big tenets for me that I talk about with um with my athletes is is you we have to find a way to trust each other. I have to trust that you're gonna do what I assign, and you have to trust that I'm assigning you the right stuff. And then we've got to commit to that, right? And and and and maybe that's not exactly what John Wooden was talking about, but that's how I view that, right? Like, like I don't want my athletes to have to think, right? Like that that that cratered me when I was a post-collegiate runner chasing my own goals, trying to coach myself. That's what cratered me. Is I I didn't trust what I was always giving myself, right? I I second guessed it. Um, you know, it's really hard to coach yourself. But when I had a coach, I was all in, right? Like I trusted that I was coachable, I committed that process. What does that trust and commitment mean to you as you're working with athletes?

Sean Henning 23:48

Yeah, so yeah, and here's my definition. Um trusting the program that uh that you've committed to, uh believing in the the leadership, the coaching, uh, the training process. Um and uh yeah, both inside uh, you know, within with your coach, but also, you know, when when you talk about with other people, like like voicing the trust that you have in it, right? Um I think sometimes in society, once we start complaining about things, we're like speaking it into existence. It's now it's now a thing, right? We start complaining and it's now um and so speaking highly of what you're doing and um and even uh voicing it to the person you're working with, I trust you, I trust this. Um it doesn't mean that the person is uh gonna get it right all the time. That coach will make mistakes. Um but you still trust them. You still trust them. Um, but yeah, there's there's not one cookie-cutter way to get somebody uh from point A to point B. There are a lot of a lot of routes to go. And as coaches, we're trying to figure that out, right? We don't always have it figured out the first, especially if we're working with a client for the first time, we don't know them very well. We're we literally don't even we haven't even met them face to face. We're learning a lot. And so there is sometimes some trial and error, but having a client that says, you know what, I trust that what you have me doing is is going to work well for me. And right. Um I think when clients when clients can put their uh when when runners, I'll just say when runners can place their trust in a coach, um uh I don't want to say blindly because that sounds like they'd just be willing. If I told someone to jump on one foot and spin around in a circle, I hope they don't think that that's gonna work. But um but but they're willing to trust the logic that someone else has uh in something, um, even if it doesn't quite make sense in their mind, they're willing to trust it.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Right.

Sean Henning 25:33

Um, and the reality is when there isn't trust and commitment, usually the result is not as good. Because there's you if you're not all in on it, uh there's there's uh there's just a seed of doubt that has been planted in you. So you approach everything with a little bit of doubt in your mind, and so you're never fully in on it. And so um it's just uh you're you're you're setting yourself up so much more to potentially have a huge breakthrough race, uh, or whatever it might be, if there's just trust and commitment that the person that you're working with, they have your best interests at heart. Um, and in reality, if you if you were to, you know, if we're talking about our clients, right? If you and I were the most selfish coaches in the world, right, all we cared was about our, we just care about ourselves, and that's it, right? Well, we would want the runners that we work with to get fast because it makes us look better. Right, right, right. Um, so even if we were the most selfish people in the world, and that's all we cared about, like we want to do everything we can to get them fast because it would make us look good, right? Right. Of course, you and I that's that's not our motivation. We we want to help people get better and we want to see them achieve their goals, and right um, and that's that's our focus. Um, but uh but we have their best interests in mind always, right? And so I think that coach to athlete relationship, it's really important, you know, that that they understand and they trust and believe that. Right. Um and uh yeah, I mean it it's hard to overcome that when you when you don't have that. It's it's really hard to have success with a with a team or uh you know someone you coach or um even I mean, even in the business world, right? It doesn't it doesn't change, it's the same thing. If you're a leader and you you the the people that are working under you do not trust and they do not commit to your vision um of how you want to run that company, it's you're probably not gonna be very good.

Jacob Phillips 27:24

Right, right. You know, I I I um I was thinking about like just in my career, um, you know, the I the athletes that that put their trust in me, uh, you know, uh it's cool to watch them, especially if you've had a long-term, you know, we could we get to coach athletes for three, four, five years. With running away, and I've I've had a handful of athletes that I've coached for two, three, four years or or whatever. And and like today I was filling in a training calendar and it's a it's an athlete that I've been coaching for three or four years. And one of the staple workouts that we do is is you know, uh a threshold session, right? And uh, and I said, hey, look, I'm not assigning paces because we're two weeks into this bear, this, this marathon buildup we're doing. I know you know how to fill this out, right? And like it's cool because we're talking, we're we're kind of almost talking about like the athlete having trust in the coach. I have trust in that athlete now, right? I I have trust, I have full trust in that athlete. And you probably can think about athletes that you've coached uh their biola or whatever, that you're like, oh yeah, they're fourth year, fifth year, they know the program. Like I trust that they're gonna make the right decision, do the right thing, that sort of thing. That's a cool, that's a cool place to be in that with that trust, you know. Like uh you they've shown the commitment, you you know, you trust them to make the right decisions as an athlete, right?

Sean Henning 28:37

Well, yeah, and I think that's a great example. Um, yeah, I I absolutely have some collegiate athletes that um they've built up that trust from me where they've been so they've been so good at trusting and committing to what that what I have them do that I actually will let them have some say in what they're doing because I trust them as well. Right. Um so no, I think it's a great point. And um I yeah, I think it's great that you've gotten to that point with a client. That's that's amazing. And that's um that's a healthy relationship. That means he trusts he or she trusts you and you trust uh you trust them. That's great. Right, right. We um I was gonna say we we uh yeah, we can talk about and yeah, you wanna um we've got another one we can talk about if you want.

Jacob Phillips 29:23

Well, so yeah, I was gonna I was gonna jump too, and and and you can you can steer this the other way if you want to. Um as we're kind of going through this, especially with like uh, you know, maybe the clients that we're working with. Um, you know, we had two down here, the competitive excellence and then appreciation for the challenge. And I wanted to jump on the appreciation for the challenge because um because like the competitive excellence, I I know like that we have we have online clients, we have college athletes, we have people who I mean they want to compete and they want to be excellent in that. Um, but I think like what I see more of is uh people walking up to the plate of this, like the their Everest, right? Like, hey, like I mean I I got an email yesterday. I'm gonna have a consultation in a couple days with the guy who says, Hey, look, like I can't break 11 for the mile, and I just want to figure out how to run, right? And like he but he understands the appreciation for the challenge, right? And so I'm I'm excited because I'm like, this is someone who's gonna go to work, right? Like they understand, hey, look, I'm willing to put in the work, I need to improve. So let's talk about that. The appreciation for the challenge. Like, like what have you seen with that? Like with with athletes, with um clients, that sort of stuff.

Sean Henning 30:34

Yeah, absolutely. So um sorry about that. I had to unlock something. Yeah, so um, yeah, I think the the definition I've I've used in my program for that is um embracing competition and the hard work required for growth, seeing challenges as opportunities to get better, right? So um when you go through a challenge, um there is so much growth that can come through through that that adversity, that uh difficulty, that stress, that anxiety, that uh uh you know, whatever you want to call it. Um even if it's a difficult one, right? Uh it's like uh you know, if we've had a we've had an athlete that uh has gone through a workout and it's been a difficult workout, right? There's still growth that occurs even in the face of difficulty. Right. Right? I had a I had an athlete um last Friday who ran uh significantly off what he's capable of. And it it was you know, it was it was just not a good day. But I had to remind him, hey, there's still a you need to appreciate the opportunity because there's there's still a lot of growth that comes from this. This was a this was not a good day. Right. But man, how much personal growth you you learn, you know, did you again you learn how to deal with adversity, you learn how to be resilient, you learn how to not quit. Right. You could have quit, um, but you didn't, and I think that was really valuable. And so I think for you know, for any of our clients, uh or anybody that's um just getting getting coached, um embrace the fact that you get to wake up, you get to get these runs in, you get to do hard workouts, you have a coach that's giving you warm-ups to do, um, giving you, you know, giving you boring things that are really really critical to do. You get to do these things. Um, a lot of people cannot do them, right? And so don't shy away from it. Like you signed up for this, so embrace it and appreciate it. Um, and again, it's something I'll I'll remind my collegiate athletes of too, because you know, you get to periods uh, you know, in both the cross-country and the track and season that track and field season that are that are hard. Hard, they're they're long and boring, and you just feel like you're doing the same thing all the time. And and so it can be challenging. And I I try to remind them, appreciate that you get this challenge. Right. Like this is great because someday you may not have this, right? And uh there are a lot of people that like to be you, you know, not only our collegiate athletes, but a lot of people that like to be our clients and get the opportunity to work with a coach and to make move their bodies in the way that they can. And right, not everybody can do that.

Jacob Phillips 33:14

Right. I I I don't know about you, and and and and you know, I'd I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on this, but like in my own personal running, uh, back in the day when I was, you know, trying to be as fast as I could possibly be, I felt like I learned more uh from those rough days, those, those harder days, than I did if I if I crushed it. If I if I ran a PR, a lot of times like I don't feel like I came out of that as as motivated uh or appreciating the challenge as if it was a rough day. And and maybe I'm the oddball there, but like, you know, like sometimes like when it goes well, like what you know, we just we forget the lesson, but when it's hard, it makes us appreciate the challenge, right?

Sean Henning 33:53

Yeah, no, no, I don't agree with that. Uh I don't know if I necessarily looked at it that way, but I think that's I think that's the right way to look at it. But um, yeah, I I think I uh I don't think I had the maturity to be able to recognize those tough days as good days too and uh valuable days, you know. So I think that's great that that you were able to do that. I think that's the way that it should be looked at. And um, you know, appreciating yeah, appreciating the good days, appreciating the the the hard days. Um maybe they're bad, but but uh but again, like if you if you if we if we were to bring this back to again, these these all these values can be uh connected to each other, right? If we were gonna bring this back to something like process over outcome, right? Right, um focusing on being excellent in the process, like even if it's a tough day, you still focus on being excellent in that step of the process, even if you're not hitting the times you want, even if you uh, you know, whatever, you feel way worse than you're supposed to feel. Um, you can still gain a lot of value from it and be excellent on that day.

SPEAKER_02 34:58

Right.

Sean Henning 34:59

Maybe your excellence doesn't show up in the times or the distance or whatever, but that doesn't mean you weren't excellent with your effort, right? And I I guess I would say that's the big thing. Like the the challenge is I mean, numbers are numbers, right? Um uh really, you know, if if we go back to John Woodens, one of his most, you know, favorite teams he coached, they were one one game over 500. He won 10 national titles. All 10. He probably had 28 teams that were better than that one team, right? Right. But that was one of his one of his most satisfying teams to coach because he got everything he could out of them, right? They appreciated the challenge that they had ahead of them themselves to finish over 500, right? And they were all in on it and they did everything they could. They were excellent in all facets of the game, and they were pretty average as a team from a record standpoint, right? But man, they did everything they could, right? Um, to get to that record. And so I think that's part of the appreciation for the challenge. Like, don't look at it like where do I where do I stack up against my peers, against other people, but what is the challenge for you, right? Right, and you appreciate what it would take to achieve that that challenge.

Jacob Phillips 36:04

So yeah, that's cool. Yeah, I I love that, man. Well, I I I just uh I I just kind of jotted down a few notes. Pursuits, uh, pursued success, daily discipline, behaviors. There are no shortcuts, power of the spoken word, not to get too charismatic there, and and challenge equals opportunity. I like those are things that you said that I I I wrote down, and and uh I think like you know, if you could sum up the the the topic of or of the of the talk today, it's like that, you know, right there. You do those things well, um, yeah, you're gonna get better. You're gonna take your running to the next level, which is the name of the podcast, right? It's a next level running podcast. And if you want to take your running to the next level, do those little small, simple things that might not even sound like they apply to running uh exactly, but they do. And uh yeah, it's it's super cool, man. But um, yeah, so well, I you know, I know obviously we've got uh busy lives in the middle of cross-country season and school and all that kind of good stuff. Any shout-outs, anything you got going on that uh we didn't we didn't we didn't hit at the beginning of the uh the chat here today?

Sean Henning 37:08

Yeah, absolutely. Well, you know, I have not really been following the world championships a ton. Um little bits here or there. Um, I mean, who would have thought a marathon, two marathons would come down to a basically a almost a photo finish, right? That's that's fun. Um but uh but yes, I haven't really been following, but you know, I have been kind of watching as I can. Um but uh but yeah, I mean uh other than that, uh I I think I'd you know I have a I have a client, I think it'd be it'd be worth giving him a shout out. Um I know he'll be listening to this too. Um uh his name is Stosh, and uh he's uh he's out on the East Coast, and um he has uh he's he's a newer client. Um but he uh yeah, he he really kind of took up running a little bit later, uh. And um he's building and getting excited for it, um, starting to pursue races, and uh yeah, he's been very good. He's he's he's got great questions to ask. He's just trying to learn. He's trying to educate himself, trying to get better. And so he's had very, very good questions, and um he's just very consistent. And so, yeah, I you know, I don't know, I don't know how fast he's gonna run. I mean, um, you know, we're still really early into it, but but I I appreciate um I appreciate his trust and commitment. Right. Yeah to make a plug here. Uh I appreciate that and uh his desire to want to be really good at the process. Um and uh yeah, so I've I've enjoyed that so far. That's cool. How about you? What's uh what about with you?

Jacob Phillips 38:37

And yeah, I mean I'm with you. I I haven't really followed the championships. I feel like it's been really hard to uh you know, it's the they're they're I I don't have all the streaming services to watch, and it's usually when I'm either like leaving practice to hurry and get ready for office work or whatever, you know. And and uh but yeah, I mean we got I've got a couple clients with some uh some races coming up. Uh Berlin is uh oh goodness, it's next uh is it this week? I I gotta go check the calendar. Might be this week, might be next week. I can't remember to be honest with you. I think it's I actually think it's uh I think it's this weekend. And I've got uh a couple clients doing uh wine glass up in um early October and then Chicago's coming up. And so yeah, I got a yeah, I got a lot going on there. And um, you know, I love the cross-country season. There's just something about it, and and uh, you know, this is one of those seasons for me that you know, we've only had two races. It's very early into the season. We've only been with our teams a month, and I've had a really good time so far, and I hope that continues on. You know, that's my goal. It's uh, you know, I don't ever want this to feel like a job, I want it to be a passion, you know. And so it's what it's felt like. And and uh I feel like I've got a group that's kind of bought into some of these things we talked about, you know, uh tonight, you know, the process. They've they I feel like they've committed themselves to the small things, and uh I feel like they've they've taken on an appreciation for the challenge. So that's been it's been cool to see that little parallel there. But uh, but yeah, man, I'm excited. We'll uh I don't know if we'll cross until hopefully nationals, but uh uh where where are you guys traveling for your big race this year? Where are you guys going?

Sean Henning 40:04

Yeah, we have a lot of traveling. Yeah, we actually uh we'll be out in Illinois, then Hawaii, uh then then Oregon, then uh God willing, we'll be in Wisconsin. But uh but yeah, so so yeah, so but we'll be we'll be traveling a lot, lot of a lot of flights. But uh yeah, we we've got a race in next next weekend. Uh we'll go it's local, but an hour away. So nice. Um but yeah, yeah, last thing I'll say is um just um just to touch on what you were you were talking about with your teams. I think sometimes as coaches, some of the most valuable um experiences we have as coaches is when we um we have uh we have athletes that we know are committing uh committed to building something. Right. Um and they they want to have a healthy culture and uh they they know that they may not be national champions, but man, they're really committed to getting better. And right. Well, we would love to coach fast teams every single season, and and we have you you and I both have uh have been able, we've been very fortunate to coach some very good teams. Right. It's not always the case, right? And um it makes it worthwhile when you know you still have a crew that is um um just really committed to some great values, right? Which makes it it just makes it easier as a coach, right? And so same thing with the clients, but yeah, as as teams, you know, when you're around 20 plus individuals, it's great when you know, like the the values of that that group are very high. Right.

Jacob Phillips 41:31

Hey, well said, man. Well said. Well, hey, I will uh we'll yell at you maybe next time.

Sean Henning 41:36

Sounds good. Good to talk, and uh yeah, good luck, uh good luck uh over the next couple weeks. See ya.

Jacob Phillips 41:45

And that does it for this month's episode of the Next Level Running Podcast. Thanks so much for joining along. Hopefully, you got some wisdom from some of these principles that Coach John wouldn't used to apply to those UCLA basketball teams way back in the day. Hopefully you can take some of this advice and apply it to chasing your goals, chasing your own running. Thanks once again to Coach Sean Henning for his time and his wisdom. Again, I hope you enjoyed the conversation. We're gonna be back next month with another next level running podcast. But until then, have a great run. Thank you for joining us here on the Next Level Running Podcast, your source for training advice from the expert coaches at Rundoyan. If you're ready to take your training and racing to the next level, head over to Rundoyan.com and get matched to your ideal coach who will provide you with the highly customized online training you need for crushing your goals on race day.